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Northern Ireland and Brexit

(364 Posts)
MaizieD Sat 29-Sep-18 10:42:25

An Irishman tries yet again to explain the huge Brexit problem with NI. In response to yet another airy dismissal by Boris Johnson:

Start

Patrick Kielty @patrickielty
And please.... please don't tell me it's "our money" or that the UK government would have done it anyway because I can't be bothered to take you by the hand, lead you to a corner and explain simple things in words of one syllable

1. Northern Ireland is made up of a majority of Unionists (as in the Conservative and Unionist Party) and, believe it or not, a rather large minority of Nationalists (as in Irish Nationalists)

2. These Irish Nationalists don’t see themselves as British but rather inconveniently as Irish (who knew?)

3. For over 30 years we killed each other because of these differences which means Northern Ireland is nothing like Camden or Westminster.

4. The Good Friday Agreement ended that violence by the following devious magic - Unionists were guaranteed that Northern Ireland would be part of the UK until the majority voted otherwise.

The Irish was border was removed and the island linked so Nationalists could pretend they were already living in a United Ireland (yes, Tony Blair did slight of hand much better than you)

5. Some of these Nationalists then accepted being part of the UK as their day to day lives were essentially Irish.

6. This cunning plan was sold to us on the basis that we were all part of the EU therefore fixation on nationality was so last World War.

7. Implementing the Good Friday Agreement was torturous (think Brexit with actual bombs, not metaphorical suicide vests) but we finally made peace. Yet 20 years later NI remains a divided society.

8. Thanks to your glorious Brexit vision Northern Ireland will become more divided as some form of economic border checks will become part of daily lives.

9. If those checks take place between NI and Ireland, the Nationalists who were once happy being part of the UK will change their mind.

10. If they take place in the Irish Sea some Unionists will be livid. However they'll still support being part of the UK (the clue is in the Unionist bit)

11. Your Brexit lies have opened a Pandora’s box for Northern Ireland. It's one reason why the majority of people in NI voted to remain in the EU (almost as if they knew more about the fragile equilibrium of their politics than you)

12. Barely mentioned before Brexit, a border poll is now inevitable thanks to your monumental ignorance.

13. When that poll is eventually held the Nationalists who were once content being part of a Northern Ireland within the UK and EU will vote to leave the UK to feel as Irish and European as they did before Brexit.

14. The poll will be much closer thanks to your Brexit folly and could easily be lost by Unionists, breaking up the UK.

15. Any break up of the Union will be your fault (a tad inconvenient as a member of the Conservative and er, Unionist party)

16. The EU is not responsible for your blundering lack of foresight. Like most people in Northern Ireland they were happy with the status quo.

17. By the time the penny drops that you can’t preserve the Union you want without the one you don’t, it will be too late.

18. You will be remembered not as the Churchillian visionary you delude yourself to be but the ignoramus who triggered the break up of the UK.

19. If there’s any justice all this will come to pass when you're Prime Minister so you can finally swim in the constitutional sewage you've created (though we all know you’ll be in Nice with your trotters up)

20. Meantime, if you’re so concerned about keeping Northern Ireland totally aligned with the rest of the UK where’s your support for our same sex marriage and women’s right to choose? Your silence is deafening.

End

In a nutshell, so to speak grin

Diana54 Sun 07-Oct-18 11:38:07

Staying in the EU with a customs union, that would probably suit Scotland too.

Rather than have a hard border maybe Ireland would join the UK in the same customs union i.e.:- Norway model
I know this has not been mooted but may be a solution, Ireland really, really does not want a border it is in their interest to find an agreement.

MaizieD Sun 07-Oct-18 11:57:21

Why should Ireland (by which I presume you mean the ROI) have to change its customs arrangements to suit the UK?

And I don't think that the EU would approve such an agreement; it would have to be EU wide, surely?

jura2 Sun 07-Oct-18 12:25:21

Sorry, Diana, but I don't believe you have quite thought this one through- somehow.

jura2 Sun 07-Oct-18 12:33:32

Oh yes, Maw- our Emma has hers, Danish, with Swiss and French vet stamps in it. And she comes back and forth with us, to our family and friends in the UK - she has also been to Italy with us, and goes to France many times a week.

Minou 3 legs has his too- issued in France although he lives in Switzerland- although he tends to stay behind with our wonderful French neighbour looking after him.

But the VERY POINT is - that those EU passports will no longer be valid soon to and from UK. That means that those with pets will no longer be able to travel to visit family, or to go on holiday. As during the last financial crisis, when 1000s of Brits living in France were hit badly and could not sell their home, they will probably be left behind- like last time. Dogs, cats, chickens, donkeys, horses and so many more- abandonned at the local spa in boxes- or just left in the garden - with the key under the matt and no forwarding address. That is the reality on the ground.

Emma is wonderful - but at 13, very disturbed by the trauma her owners put her through before we took her on. Euthanazed her son who was 11 - and dumped her on our doorstep. She is gorgeous, but we just could not leave her in kennels or with anyone- as long as she is with us, she is very happy. So, what would we choose- visiting our grandchildren? Or Emma?

MawBroon Sun 07-Oct-18 12:55:49

OMG you are not saying Hattie might be deported? ????

MawBroon Sun 07-Oct-18 12:57:14

Seriously, if that is the attitude to their animals of any expats living abroad , they can stay abroad and good riddance.

jura2 Sun 07-Oct-18 13:36:23

Well, I am with you on that one - and yet...

when people are pushed to the brink, with no plan B possible but to come home with nothing at all, they get desperate and put themselves and their families first.

As for Hattie- you know jolly well the answer to that. But there are 1000s with second homes in France who travel back and forth with pets all the time, and 10s of 1000s of Brits in EU who regularly come home to visit family and friends - with their pets- and who probably won't be able to do so in future. Like ourselves.

You don't seem to care- and that is your prerogative of course- but don't pretend that many will be seriously affected in ways they could never have planned for, or imagined.

MawBroon Sun 07-Oct-18 14:03:31

1
I think you are exaggerating. We do not know what the exact arrangements will be for small animals. Second home owners by definition are unlikely to end up with nothing and if they can afford to travel to and fro on a regular basis, they can also afford to make the necessary arrangements for their pets.
I don’t take Hattie on holiday even in this country, she goes to kennels. My friend with a horse and two donkeys arranges “pet care” in her own way.

2
You don't seem to care- and that is your prerogative of course- but don't pretend that many will be seriously affected in ways they could never have planned for, or imagined

Did you really mean that?
Or did you mean will NOT be seriously affected ?

jura2 Sun 07-Oct-18 14:49:12

Yes, thanks, forgot the 'not'.

People with second homes do not go on 'holiday' for 1 week or 2, - they go to their second home, which happens to be across the border rather than in Devon or the Lakes ... and they go for many weeks at a time, even months- as they have chosen homes in the country where their pets are welcome.

We never come to UK for less than 3 weeks at a time- but many going to France do so for the whole Summer, and as said, months at a time.

Diana54 Sun 07-Oct-18 15:26:55

You're right Jura2 far too simplistic a solution.
So what happens when there is a second vote and it says remain?

Or are you ruling out a second vote ?

Why would ROI change, because a great deal of its trade is with or through the UK. A hard border is going to cost them a great deal

jura2 Sun 07-Oct-18 15:29:23

If it says 'remain' then there is no problem- stay as it is, simple.

Cindersdad Sun 07-Oct-18 15:46:32

There is no solution to the Irish Problem other than to cancel Brexit and the only way we can do that is by a People's Vote. My view is that in the long run there should be a United Ireland, the level of hatred in Ireland is getting less. The people of Northern Ireland should have a vote to stay in the UK or join the Irish Republic.

paddyann Sun 07-Oct-18 17:15:07

I think you're wrong there is still a core of the hatred thats been there for centuries.My friend recently had a weekend in Derry ,didn't think to check the area out that the hotel was in before they booked.The taxi driver who dropped them off asked them some questions and then advised them not to leave the hotel unless in a group or to go to certain pubs .There are still areas "decorated" with the huge murals of soldiers with guns and No Surrender and its not an isolated case.It still the ssame in other parts on NI too .
It is totally unreasonable to walk away from this issue ,apart from anything else if it escalates, as it 's likely ,the Troubles are apt to spill over to the mainland .I'm sure the people of England dont want a repeat of the past either .

MawBroon Sun 07-Oct-18 18:36:38

People with second homes do not go on 'holiday' for 1 week or 2, - they go to their second home, which happens to be across the border rather than in Devon or the Lakes ... and they go for many weeks at a time, even months- as they have chosen homes in the country where their pets are welcome

When there are people in our own country without even one home to call their own, I hardly think the Brexit negotiations need to hinge on the inconvenience of owners of second homes abroad and Fido or Fluffy.
Some people are affluent enough to be able to afford second homes in the US or in countries inaccessible by car.
Presumably they have thought through their domestic feline or canine arrangements hmm

jura2 Sun 07-Oct-18 18:45:13

The second home issue if totally separate- it makes no difference if they are just across the Channel 100 km away, or up in the Lakes or Scotland, probably further. It could be an interesting discussion, but is totally irrelevant here.

Most British people who have purchased, or are renting, a second home in France, have done so with the plan to retire there at a later stage.

And yes, they have thought through their domestice feline or canine arrangements, and all the rest too- like rights of abode, reciprocal health care when retired via form S1, and so much more. They did so on the basis of being in the EU- and for the above, ensuring their pets are EU passported, chipped and vaccinated, at considerable cost.

lemongrove Sun 07-Oct-18 18:45:18

grin my thoughts exactly Maw
Pets and second home owners come very far down on the list IMHO.

jura2 Sun 07-Oct-18 18:49:46

Most Brits resident in the EU are indeed not second home owners- but have sold everything they had, and used their lump sums, or proceeds from the UK home, to invest abroad, lock, stock and barrel- knowing that they were safe with EU arrangements, for residency, healthcare, pensions, taxes... AND their pets.

So on one hand people are going on about people on the left being 'green eyed' re those who have more, those like Rees Mogg, those who put kids through private education, avail themselves of private healthcare, etc ...

but then, turn coat totally when it suits.

trisher Sun 07-Oct-18 18:53:57

Woo all the accusations which have been thrown at me about being envious and not liking rich people are suddenly forgotten. Apparently those with second homes abroad are at fault because they can afford one!

lemongrove Sun 07-Oct-18 18:55:30

Not at all, but Brexit has more important things to sort out in it , than worrying about pet passports.
Since you, I and everbody else doesn’t know how things will pan out just yet, how about we wait and see what comes of it.

Welshwife Sun 07-Oct-18 19:06:35

The people living abroad may well figure greatly in the fall out from Brexit if the EU countries reciprocate what the U.K. intends to do and deport those with an income of less than £50K - what will the U.K. do to support them if they cannot sell property or get a job? It will be a bit of a drain on the benefits and housing systems.

GillT57 Sun 07-Oct-18 19:11:33

lemongrove your constant advice that we should all just wait and see is short sighted and very irritating. By the time we 'wait and see" it will be too late to change what is happening. The snarky comments made by some on here about second home owners are ill informed and unsympathetic. And as to pets; my niece lives in Spain and has adopted two stray dogs. She comes home to visit her parents for several weeks at a time, bringing the dogs with her. Although I agree it is small potatoes as part of the general horrendous economic and social implications of Brexit, it is a huge a problem to her and the fact that those of you who voted Brexit have caused worry and distress to a lovely hard working girl then dismiss it as not worth worrying about, well......

MawBroon Sun 07-Oct-18 19:12:10

Most Brits resident in the EU are indeed not second home owners- but have sold everything they had, and used their lump sums, or proceeds from the UK home, to invest abroad, lock, stock and barrel- knowing that they were safe with EU arrangements, for residency, healthcare, pensions, taxes... AND their pets
Make up your mind Jura, it was you who went on about *second home*owners and their extended holidays in whichever country.
I don’t actually begrudge them it, but on the scale of priorities, economy, jobs, housing etc Fido and Moggy come rather farther down the list. .

jura2 Sun 07-Oct-18 19:28:17

No need to make my mind up MawB- they both exist- those with second homes, a minority, and those residents in the EU, 10s of 1000s of them. Who, as Welshwife says- may well lose everything they have worked for, and have to return with nothing, no home, no money - because their home would become unsaleable. The market in some areas has already totally stopped, due to uncertainties about Brexit.

The Germans, Dutch and Swiss are picking up some amazing bargains for sure.

lemongrove Sun 07-Oct-18 20:41:35

‘Those of you who voted Brexit have caused worry and distress to a hard working girl’ you say Gill
Yes, we did it on purpose just for that reason!
You are right in saying it is small potatoes with all the rest of the deals to be worked out, and I am right in saying wait and see.Not a popular outlook on GN I realise, as few like waiting to see, they would rather wade in with negatives now, but what’s the point?
We will know soon enough.

jura2 Sun 07-Oct-18 22:01:49

oh yes, just be upbeat about it and wait ... as Dara says:

youtu.be/1e7FHIffc74