The Second World War and Great Britain - we were not alone

I looked at this post as at first it seemed “non-Brexit”!!!

Unfortunately it has only confirmed why I decided not to post on any Brexit related thread post 29/93/19........people on both sides are losing the plot in ever desperate measures to get people to change their minds?????

Oops typo ......29/03/19

This thread is so wrong. To use WW2 in a brexit debate is sick .

Rock bottom and still drilling

I have until now never contributed to any of the Brexit threads. Like others I feel this has reached saturation point, endless discussions at all levels by many people in all areas with as yet no conclusion what so ever. But, I feel that this thread by Jura2, who apparently no longer resides in the UK really has reached an all time low. This is a forum for the more mature not the young and as such I believe there are many who will have information & seen the effects from grandparents & parents who were directly involved with the 2nd world war. Within my own family & wider circle there were those who fought on land & sea, were on ships & submarines that were sunk and were prisoners of war and yes I do know my history thank you. We owe so much to so many from all points of the globe for the freedom we have. The EU as others have pointed out has not been the peace keeper but NATO of which I have first hand experience. It seems that the OP together with some others will stop at nothing in their desire to force feed their beliefs with their constant coping & pasting from what ever source. Democracy & tolerance is being eroded and this is not what our country should be reduced to, our children and grandchildren deserve better.

He would need to be at least 92. However at that age my father was quite capable of writing the text in Jura's post, had he been so inclined.

There had probably been previous research into this subject over a prolonged period. I do not think anyone of any age could have just written that list of service groups off the top of their head.

Well said toscalily.

toscalily ????????

I do think most of us know that, I have relatives who served with the Free French and other Europeans (non British) family who were part of the combined war effort. I also have a cousin who had extended family on the other side of her family living in mainland Europe who survived concentration camp. I absolutely agree with toscalily "this has reached saturation point" and I find the "we all need a bit of education" about what is frankly common knowledge, somewhat patronising.

maddyone, I also have Jewish relatives and I don't think they will ever forgive the Germans of the past for what they did. What they don't do, is blame the Germans of today for the sins of their ancestors.
What they did was absolutely horrifying and having just returned from Auschwitz, it turns your blood cold. However, the reason Hitler was able to even suggest the internment of Jews, Gypsies and Homosexuals was that there was a drip, drip effect of demonising such groups. If we don't guard against this, it is quite possible such heinous crimes can be perpetuated.

I think everyone knows perfectly well that GB did not win either world wars on their own and that we are massively indebted to our then Empire, the Americans, Russians and many other nations. However in 1940, due to the extreme bravery of our very young spitfire/hurricane pilots, average age 20, we did manage not to be invaded and were thus able to be a safeish haven for those fleeing their own countries including General deGaulle!! It was these young men/boys, and they alone who stood between us and invasion! With no army after Dunkirk, Europe under occupation , make no mistake, we owe these, mostly fallen or desperately badly injured young men an enormous debt I was a war baby and fatherless before I was born,and any belittling of our armed forces, or us as a people at this desperate time does not sit well with me!

Well said Jabberwok.

Thank you EV ?

This post is for all those who complacently - even gloatingly - say things like "We stood and won WW2 alone" and "We survived rationing without help during WW2, Brexit will be a piece of cake.

I have not heard even ONE person who wants to leave the EU say anything like this. Not one.

Most of us know our history and appreciate the many losses suffered by so many countries because of war.

I find it extremely crass that the victims of war and the countries that suffered hardship during the war has been reduced to a point-scoring Remain argument.

Excellent post toscalily

@anniebach
"This thread is so wrong. To use WW2 in a brexit debate is sick."

WW2 has been used in a few debates about Brexit and, it has to be said, mostly by Leavers. If you don't believe me, just scroll around some of the debates on FB and other social media sites, and you will see it.
Maybe you don't visit these sites (I wouldn't blame you!) but I can assure you that the 'spirit' of WW2 stoicism is something that Leave voters most certainly evoke in connection with Brexit.
Having said that, I don't think I have seen any posts anywhere that have denigrated the involvement and support we got from other countries, although I do believe that some - younger - people who don't really know their history do believe that we were largely 'alone'.

I don't think that the stoicism is what is being invoked here though.

Although it is perhaps what is needed.

I can assure you that the 'spirit' of WW2 stoicism is something that Leave voters most certainly evoke in connection with Brexit

Hmmm. Whereas Remainers argue (all over the www) that the EU is a peace keeping force, which is also a biased argument given the NATO alliance was formed for this reason after the war.

Many remainers think we are leaving Europe and it has to be pointed out to them that we are European and will remain European because Europe is a continent. Sigh.The EU is something different. Not all Remainers are politically savvy or aware.

Fighter Command and Bomber Command until the Americans appeared,were all that stood between us and Nazi Germany in those very dark days and the squadrons listed by the OP were all operated out of the UK by young men who had managed to flee their own countries, as there was no where else!. After the war, a Polish airman my mother had become very fond of was desperate to go back to Poland to help rebuild the country! He went, she and I didn't, thank goodness! I have quite often wondered what happened to him particularly as he was an officer?!! Nothing good I fear!
To equate these times with WW2 is just plain ridiculous and absurd!

well said toscalily, am from a Polish father who was working with tanks throughout the whole war from 1939. He worked side by side with the Brits and earned several medals for bravery. He could not go back to Poland because he would have been shot by the Russians, having fought as he did. His brother was shot by the kgb, his father was killed in ww1. He married my mum after being billeted in their house in Breda. He settled in the uk, could have gone anywhere in the world.

They embraced being in the uk and were naturalised, taking the oath. They had 7 children and lived in poverty, working 14 hour days but had high aspirations for us all. We all became professionals with degrees and have been good honest and upright citizens, none of us ever had benefits or been out of work

We were all born here and are British to the core and all voted the same way in 2016. The British were always a brave race, time to be brave again

Btw OP, my daughter was a major in the British army

@Day6

Some Remainers do indeed argue that the EU is a "peace keeping force" (I'm not one of them, though I am a Remainer).
But that is a separate issue. I was just surprised that one poster thought it "sick" that the subject of WW2 was being discussed in connection with Brexit on here when it is, in fact, discussed all over the place on other sites.
If Leave voters want to invoke the endurance of Britain during WW2 as comparable to stoicism in the face of Brexit 'fallout', then I personally - though opposed to Brexit - don't see a problem - neither do I think it "sick" for Remainers to join in the discussion!
As for your final comment about Remainers - there's truth in that. The EU is not Europe. I personally don't think Remainers are a homogeneous group - nor Leavers. Both groups seem to have different stripes within the group.

As a newcomer, can I just lay my political cards on the table - as this is a political-section...
I am a Remain voter - but with a sympathy (if that's the right word) for the Leave contingent (although not those threatening violence).
I do not believe that all Leave voters are ignorant racists, nor do I believe that all Remainers are superior beings. My partner is a Leaver (a 'Bennite') and he is against the EU because he believes it's a Corporatists' Club, basically - though not against the idea of the EU in principle.
There are some arrogant, sneering individuals on the Remain side and some nasty, viscous people on the Leave side - I haven't seen any of those on Gransnet.
Finally, though I don't like it, and I do believe there has been fraud and interference (not going into that), the fact is that Leave were the majority, and DC did say that he would abide by the result of the Referendum (pity though that he sidled off-stage when faced with the truth of his misjudged call).
IMO we cannot ignore the 6 million petitioners, nor those numbers that marched for a PV. But neither can we simply dismiss the 17+ million that voted to Leave. Even though there was undoubtedly 'interference' in the Referendum - I'm pretty sure many, if not most, Leave voters had already made up their minds... as had the Remainers,
The question is, where do we go from here so that we can at least attempt to calm the anger, frustration and hostility on both sides? We still all have to live together on this benighted little island.
Or, maybe I'm just an appeaser! Dunno. Anyway, hello everyone, and good wishes to all.

Yes good points made by Eleothan and maddieone. Those who do not know Jura background would be advised not to make snarky comments about Swiss neutrality, and I for one, think that her original post was pertinent. I am assuming that nobody on here would be so disgusting as to tell a Eastern European to 'go home' but let's not pretend that it hasn't happened; there were many well documented cases of this in the earlier days after the result and I have to assume that the ignorant people who made these comments have not changed their opinions. The vitriol hurled at Jura has been awful on here, she was making a very valid point as she is entitled to do, as we all are. The deliberate misrepresentation/misunderstanding of what she wrote says much about the people who rushed to condemn her without reading, understanding and appreciating the point being made. This is yet another example of the division in this country caused by this bloody Brexit fiasco.

What has this thread got to do with Brexit?

I assumed the thread was just an (unnecessary) reminder that Britain had allies in the last war, as far as I could see to no particular purpose.

I get the feeling at the moment that if someone started a thread on beautiful princesses and handsome princes, within three posts everyone would be arguing about Brexit.

Brexit is SOOOOOOOO boring and no matter which we result we get, even if we stay in, it will be an unmitigating disaster and why people are making so much fuss about it completely defeats me. Go away and do something interesting instead.

@MOnica

Brexit may well be boooooring to you - but for those of us who will be affected it's slightly less so.
My partner and I run a small consultancy - which will be, and is being, affected by the issue. The business supports our less-than-adequate pensions so we are a tad worried how things will develop. We also have many friends and colleagues in Europe, so we do find it quite "interesting" to be involved in the process - even f only as unfortunate onlookers.
... If people's livelihoods etc are going to be affected - that could just be the reason why they are, you know, making "so much fuss".
I can understand it doesn't interest you, but if other's interest in the issue "defeats" you - then why are you bothering to get involved and post - why not just scroll past all the booooring stuff!