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Can't believe it!

(257 Posts)
phoenix Sat 30-May-20 16:23:47

No one has posted about George Floyd!

Disgraceful killing.

Are we unable to look beyond our own immediate locality? Have we stopped caring about anything beyond bloody Covid 19 and the fact we can't see our grandchildren?

Sorry, not my usual sort of post, will don my tin helmet and get behind the sofa.

SueDonim Sat 30-May-20 18:14:48

I care. I’ve been busy on FB regarding this and other race issues. The following is a taste of the kind of thing that’s going around social media.

“I have privilege as a white person because I can do all of these things without thinking twice:

I can go birding (#ChristianCooper).
I can go jogging (#AmaudArbery).
I can relax in the comfort of my own home (#BothemSean and #AtatianaJefferson).
I can ask for help after being in a car crash (#JonathanFerrell and #RenishaMcBride).
I can have a cellphone (#StephonClark).
I can leave a party to get to safety (#JordanEdwards).
I can play loud music (#JordanDavis).
I can sell CD's (#AltonSterling).
I can sleep (#AiyanaJones)
I can walk from the corner store (#MikeBrown).
I can play cops and robbers (#TamirRice).
I can go to church (#Charleston9).
I can walk home with Skittles (#TrayvonMartin).
I can hold a hair brush while leaving my own bachelor party (#SeanBell).
I can party on New Years (#OscarGrant).
I can get a normal traffic ticket (#SandraBland).
I can lawfully carry a weapon (#PhilandoCastile).
I can break down on a public road with car problems (#CoreyJones).
I can shop at Walmart (#JohnCrawford) .
I can have a disabled vehicle (#TerrenceCrutcher).
I can read a book in my own car (#KeithScott).
I can be a 10yr old walking with our grandfather (#CliffordGlover).
I can decorate for a party (#ClaudeReese).
I can ask a cop a question (#RandyEvans).
I can cash a check in peace (#YvonneSmallwood).
I can take out my wallet (#AmadouDiallo).
I can run (#WalterScott).
I can breathe (#EricGarner).
I can live (#FreddieGray).
I can be arrested without the fear of being murdered. (#GeorgeFloyd)

#BlackLivesMatter”

Deedaa Sat 30-May-20 18:27:27

I think no one has mentioned it before because it's all so depressingly predictable. Trump will call out the National Guard and tell us the cops are all "Very fine people"

Baggs Sat 30-May-20 18:47:46

This is a good thread on the subject of the riots, by Coleman Hughes on Twitter.

Summerlove Sat 30-May-20 18:59:52

ladymuck Just two questions I would like to ask.....What happened immediately before the man was held down, was the policeman using reasonable force to restrain a dangerous criminal....and would there be the same outrage if the man had been white?

Are you suggesting that a) that George Floyd might have done something to deserve being murdered by the police?
B) we only “care” because he’s black?

You aren’t coming across very well with those questions

EllanVannin Sat 30-May-20 19:08:31

-------double posts from me because my send facility froze then I got the error code ( gransnet )

EllanVannin Sat 30-May-20 19:24:35

I'm afraid Keir Starmer has got a short memory on this one !

Whitewavemark2 Sat 30-May-20 19:32:32

People are watching for the 9 minutes it took the assassination of a black man by a white man.

It is like some sort of murder porn.

It is sick.

If they were really disgusted they would stop it by using what power they do have by the vote, and direct action.

GagaJo Sat 30-May-20 19:39:31

I lived in the US for a couple of years when my daughter was a toddler. Horrible, racist country. I have a green card but will never live there again.

Not that we should excuse ourselves in the UK. The way the Windrush people have been treated is abominable and let's not forget Grenfell.

GagaJo Sat 30-May-20 19:41:04

Great post SueDonim. Hope you don't mind if I borrow it.

BlueBelle Sat 30-May-20 19:44:08

Oh my word ladymuck how can you possible ask that Read it, watch it You won’t need to have an answer then and of course there would be outrage whatever colour or creed but it would never never happen to a white person, are you really so unknowing
CrazyH you are so wrong in you’re ‘only in America‘ comment there is an ongoing case off a rogue policeman in Birmingham tazoring black men for no reason but racial hatred at the moment but it certainly is rife in US With their gun culture
Unfortunately the US policeman inthis case is only being charged with third degree murder which, correct me if I m wrong, is something akin to manslaughter
I watched a video today of a young man (teenager)In US and black being stopped by the police he was on his knees with huge guns trained on him, within seconds there were police cars zooming in from everywhere, the woman videoing it was the lady whose husband was killed by the police in his own car when he reached to get his papers out to show the police 5 years ago This woman was reliving every moment crying, begging the young man not to move, not to resist It was truly dreadful I was crying throughout I can’t bear to think of this

EllanVannin Sat 30-May-20 19:51:34

Keir Starmer was a part of the CPS when he thought it was okay not to prosecute Harwood, a cop, for the unlawful killing of Ian Tomlinson !

BlueBelle Sat 30-May-20 19:59:00

edition.cnn.com/2020/05/21/us/breonna-taylor-death-police-changes-trnd/index.html
I m hoping this link works

Whitewavemark2 Sat 30-May-20 20:09:14

Let’s look at the decision which was fully published.

Keir Starmer published it in full in the interests of transparency and accountability.

This is part of it.

Possible charges
The first issue that the CPS considered was whether the actions of PC 'A' were lawful. Having analysed the available evidence very carefully, the CPS concluded that there is sufficient evidence to provide a realistic prospect of proving that the actions of PC 'A' in striking Mr Tomlinson with his baton and then pushing him over constituted an assault. At the time of those acts, Mr Tomlinson did not pose a threat to PC 'A' or any other police officer. Whilst the officer was entitled to require Mr Tomlinson to move out of Royal Exchange, there is sufficient evidence to provide a realistic prospect of proving that his actions were disproportionate and unjustified.

Having concluded that the officer's actions could constitute an assault, the CPS then considered the possible criminal charges

. Unlawful act manslaughter
Unlawful act manslaughter was the most serious charge considered. This is where a killing is the result of the defendant's unlawful and dangerous act where the unlawful act is one which all sober and reasonable people would realise would subject the victim to the risk of some physical harm, even though it might not cause serious harm.

In order to proceed with this charge, the CPS would have to prove a causal link between the alleged assault on Mr Tomlinson and his death.

On that issue, the medical experts were and remain fundamentally divided. Dr Patel's opinion is that Mr Tomlinson's death was "consistent with natural causes" and that the cause of death was "coronary artery disease". The opinion of Dr Cary and Dr Shorrock is that Mr Tomlinson's death was the result of abdominal haemorrhage (internal bleeding) caused by blunt force trauma to the abdomen.

A conflict between medical experts inevitably makes a prosecution very difficult, but the CPS proceeded on the basis that such a conflict need not automatically mean that a prosecution must fail. For that reason, we explored at some length the possibility of proceeding without relying on the evidence of Dr Patel. However, we were ultimately driven to conclude that, as the sole medical expert who conducted the first post mortem, Dr Patel would have to be called at trial as a prosecution witness as to the primary facts. His evidence would be that there was no internal rupture and that the fluid consisted of blood stained ascites and not blood alone. Even leaving out of account the stark disagreement between him and the other experts as to the cause of death, the CPS concluded that the evidence of those primary facts undermined the basis upon which the other experts reached their conclusions about the cause of death. As a result, the CPS would simply not be able to prove beyond reasonable doubt that there was a causal link between Mr Tomlinson's death and the alleged assault upon him.

That being the case, there is no realistic prospect of a conviction for unlawful act manslaughter.
Assault
Two types of assault charge were considered: assault occasioning actual bodily harm and common assault.

Assault occasioning actual bodily harm would require the prosecution to prove that the alleged assault on Mr Tomlinson caused him actual bodily harm. So far as the push on Mr Tomlinson is concerned, the conflict in the medical evidence prevents this. If the push caused Mr Tomlinson's death, the appropriate charge would be manslaughter, not assault occasioning actual bodily harm. If, as we have concluded, the prosecution cannot prove a causal link between the push and Mr Tomlinson's death because of the conflict in the medical evidence, it follows that actual bodily harm cannot be proved either.

The separate strike with the baton was also considered. It had left patterned bruising. But where injuries are relatively minor, as these were, the appropriate charge is common assault in accordance with the CPS Charging Standard, which is applied nationally. This Charging Standard was applied in another incident arising from the G20 where a police officer had struck the complainant twice with his baton.

Common assault does not require proof of injury, but it is subject to a strict six month time limit. That placed the CPS in a very difficult position because enquiries were continuing at the six month point and it would not have been possible to have brought any charge at that stage.

Misconduct in public office
The CPS also considered the offence of misconduct in public office. The offence is committed when a public officer acting as such wilfully neglects to perform his duty and/or wilfully misconducts himself to such a degree as to amount to an abuse of the public's trust in the office holder without reasonable excuse or justification. The offence is, in essence, one of abuse of the power or responsibilities of the office held.

The offence of misconduct in public office cannot simply be used as a substitute for other offences and simply being a police officer who commits a criminal offence, even one of assault, does not, without some other aggravating factor, automatically amount to the offence of misconduct in public office. Mr Tomlinson's death would be an aggravating feature, but for the reasons already stated, the prosecution cannot prove a causal link between the alleged assault and the death to the criminal standard. The Court of Appeal has held that: "The threshold is a high one requiring conduct so far below acceptable standards as to amount to an abuse of the public's trust in the office holder." In addition: "It will normally be necessary to consider the likely consequences of the breach in deciding whether the conduct falls so far below the standard of conduct to be expected of the officer as to constitute the offence." The 'likely' consequences of pushing a person to the floor is that they may sustain some bruising. But, in this case, on the analysis of the medical evidence set out above, the CPS would not be able to prove beyond reasonable doubt that Mr Tomlinson's fall had caused him any injury.

As a result, we have concluded that the conduct of PC 'A' did not meet the high threshold required to constitute the offence of misconduct in public office.

In reaching a decision about misconduct in public office, the CPS also took into account the fact that the Court of Appeal has indicated that it would be wrong to charge misconduct in public office as an alternative to a charge of manslaughter in circumstances where the prosecution cannot prove the cause of death.

As far as the dog bite is concerned, there is no evidence that the dog handler instructed or encouraged the dog to bite Mr Tomlinson.

The decision in this case was taken by Stephen O'Doherty, a Deputy Director of the CPS Special Crime Division and a highly experienced reviewing lawyer. Advice was taken from Tim Owen QC, who is recognised as one of the leading lawyers in the country specialising in police law and criminal law. The Director of Public Prosecutions (DPP) reviewed all of the important material and also attended a number of the meetings with the medical experts. Against that background, he is satisfied that the CPS carefully considered all the evidence in this case.

The CPS is aware that comment has been made about the time taken to reach a decision. We understand the anxiety that this has caused to the family of Mr Tomlinson and the DPP discussed it with them. He is satisfied that the CPS acted as quickly as was consistent with the thorough and careful review of the evidence that was necessary. The review entailed not only the painstaking exercise of mapping the movements of all concerned, over many hours, but also the extensive exercise of seeking to resolve the complex and difficult areas of disagreement between the medical experts.

Conclusion
In this case there has always been and, despite the efforts of the prosecution team to resolve issues, there remains an irreconcilable conflict between Dr Patel on the one hand and the other experts on the other as to the cause of death. As the sole medical expert who conducted the first post mortem, Dr Patel would have to be called at trial as a prosecution witness as to the primary facts. As a result, the CPS would simply not be able to prove beyond reasonable doubt that Mr Tomlinson's death was caused by PC 'A' pushing him to the ground. That being the case, there is no realistic prospect of a conviction for unlawful act manslaughter. It also follows that there is also no realistic prospect of a conviction for assault occasioning actual bodily harm or misconduct in public office.

The Coroner will now be informed of this decision so that he may move to an inquest. At the conclusion of the inquest the matter will be reconsidered by the CPS in the light of any evidence which may be presented.

lemongrove Sat 30-May-20 20:14:26

It was awful.Those kind of killings happen all too often in the US.Some States are better than others, obviously.
Not just black people who need to be wary of the police there either ( but worse for them.)We are used to our police here being ( most of the time) polite and even joking with suspects.
Always better to de-escalate a situation where you can do.
There, even for minor traffic violations, you can be asked to
Step out of your car with hands up, be frisked and handcuffed.
Shoplifters are sometimes shot by trigger happy police.
So glad our police force don’t all carry guns.

lemongrove Sat 30-May-20 20:21:55

That was an interesting account of the Tomlinson case WW M2 I was appalled at the time, seeing the footage of him being pushed over.Really disgraceful behaviour.

ladymuck Sat 30-May-20 20:24:18

I must thanks you for responding to my questions so reasonably. Didn't expect that!
The reason I asked is because I have only seen a picture of the policeman kneeling on the man. I don't know the events leading up to it.
There is a problem with racism in USA and we need to be careful because too many impressionable British people copy the Americans.
I know the situation is not the same, as our history is not the same. We'll never stamp out racial prejudice which, by the way, is not one-sided. We must make it clear though, that violence is not the answer.

PGAgirl Sat 30-May-20 20:30:41

We are outraged by the killing in USA but no one says a word about the stabbings in this country, Last year in London there were 108 fatal stabbings, mainly carried out by young black gang members on rival gangs, and many other stabbings across the UK There has been no outcry, the Mayor of London Sadiq Khan seems paralysed, why has he not tried to identify the problem and put measures in place to confront this, he just seems so ineffectual?

Whitewavemark2 Sat 30-May-20 20:39:18

lemon phew! I overdid the cut and paste thing as I can’t do links. I thought someone would moan?

absent Sat 30-May-20 20:42:38

The cover-up of George Ffloyd's murder has begun. The autopsy report states that there is no sign of asphyxiation or strangulation and goes on to describe the victim's heart and other health problems. So it looks likely that it will turn out to be "his own faulty body" that was to blame. Meanwhile, the policemen who knelt on his neck for 7–9 minutes has been charged with third degree murder. This level is used for something slightly more deliberate than manslaughter, with which he has also been charged. For example, if two people were having an argument and one pushed the other away and she/he fell over hitting her/his head, resulting in death, that would be third degree murder. Surely, a police officer would be aware that pressing his full body weight on someone's throat would be liable to kill him.

It has also emerged that the police officer and George Ffloyd worked for the same security firm and may have known each other. That should surely be investigated.

EllanVannin Sat 30-May-20 21:02:56

I'm not surprised that the blacks hit back. Whose idea was it to house them in " ghetto " communities to start with ? That's a disgusting insult. It's as bad as putting the poor in a community with those ugly high-rise council flats. Living in such places creates gangs and encourages crime.

Whoever designed and built such horrendous properties needs shooting. Why not decent housing ?
If this isn't creating segregation I don't know what is.

It stands to reason that if they'd been housed in decent areas instead of run=down places, they'd have taken more pride in their homes and areas . It's soul-destroying for anyone living in those horrible places in horrible areas. They're already stigmatised by being there. It's not their faults that they're black !!

Every city/town has one---why ?

Summerlove Sat 30-May-20 21:21:51

We'll never stamp out racial prejudice which, by the way, is not one-sided. We must make it clear though, that violence is not the answer

This type of circular talk trying to “blame both sides” is what doesn’t help.

A black man was murdered by a police officer. This happens far too often.

Do not devalue the anger about this with “it exists on both sides”.

When you choose to say nothing, you choose to support the oppressors.

We should all be horrified about how much more likely People of Colour are to be victims of police crimes and prejudice.

EllanVannin Sat 30-May-20 21:30:14

Why doesn't a rich country such as the USA sort out their ghetto's that they have in every state. Minneapolis is largely black as is Detroit and the Bronx. There's poverty and hardship and not always through the fault of the inhabitants there such as Detroit when the motor industry folded.

These people were cast aside once the work ran out, what do people expect that they'll do, live on fresh air ? State Governors there sound as useless as the ones we have by forgetting that some areas exist.

EllanVannin Sat 30-May-20 21:37:50

Trump will get his comeuppance when there are riots galore.

This is what happens when you have vast differences in society especially when it comes down to law and order.

SueDonim Sat 30-May-20 21:39:46

Feel free to use the quote in my post, Gagajo. I don’t know who originally wrote it so can’t credit them, unfortunately.

My son has lived in the US for many years. It’s a dog-eat-dog society and if you’re poor, jobless, homeless etc, it’s because you didn’t work hard enough, according to many people. sad

Grannynannywanny Sat 30-May-20 22:16:00

It was a truly shocking incident. The police officer knelt heavily on the poor man’s neck for 9 minutes despite hearing him repeatedly say he couldn’t breathe.

For the last 3 mins of kneeling on him he was unresponsive. They then checked for his pulse and there was none and they called for an ambulance.

Surely those officers are trained in emergency first aid. Yet no attempt was made to resuscitate him.

We witnessed an unarmed man being murdered. Truly horrific.