To Believe the British Girl in Cyprus Version of Events

People don't seem to understand that I'm not saying the girl is guilty of anything either. I'm applying the presumption of innocence without prove of guilt equally.

I am old enough to make my own judgement on men, women and society in general, compared to the attitude of the majority of younger men I know I am a saint, maybe Gransnetters are out of touch just how bad it has become.

I suspect most of us have young people in our family and friendship groups, Davidhs, we also read the press, watch tv news and follow the news on various forums. I don't believe many of us need you to tell us how "out of touch just how bad it has become"
This case is a good example of just how bad it had become.

I absolutely didn't say anything about women being whores.

I said it's a pity the young woman did not keep herself safe and I stand by that comment.

Ok, how could she have kept herself safe? She thought she was having a holiday romance with one man.

Blaming women and girls for the abuse they experience at the hands of men is age old isn't it. Still dispiriting to see it here

In which case Baggs would you not be entitled to an opinion on anything unless proved or not in a court of law or indisputable scientific fact?

You must mix with some very odd ‘younger men’ then David. I tend to find the dinosaurs tend to be found in the older age groups or the uneducated..

How can a girl keep herself safe? Well there are certain things she could do, but we have to accept that society still isn’t completely equal, whether we like it or not.
A girl could ensure she doesn’t go back to a man’s home until she knows him well.
She could not take a man to her own home until she knows him very well.
She could go out with her girlfriends and they could stay together.
They could make sure they take taxis together, or lifts from parents or friends.
They could try not to get themselves legless, particularly when on holiday where they don’t know the place, the people, or the society norms.
I know it’s unfair on girls in that these standards don’t usually apply to men. However, what’s more important, total freedom to do whatever within the law, or trying to keep yourself safe?
The girl in Cyprus has my total sympathy. I think she was raped and abused dreadfully to be honest. How long could her relationship with the young man have been going on? She could hardly have known him well. I think she’s been put through a terrible and totally unjustified ordeal. But we have to accept that maybe she didn’t take care of herself properly.

Incidentally I’m not blaming the girl, the men are the ones who appear to have committed a crime. And the judge, well words fail me!

Actually DavidH, I have a son who is one of the 'younger generation' and he is a polite, well mannered, tolerant, respectful person who would be disgusted by your comments.

Lots of people resort to magical thinking about womens safety, if she didnt go there if she didnt do that, its all nonsense of course. More women are killed by their own partners than in incidents like this. If those young men did what they were accused of then does anyone think their girlfriends/partners would be safe. What people mean when they say to their daughters or their friends 'keep yourself safe' is make sure it happens to another woman. Rapists rape, do people think if people dont have one night stands this wouldn't happen. They would just find another woman.

The young men all came from high ranking families or those with connections and they were taken out of the country and back home quickly. Seems like a cover up to me.

Also during my 11 years travelling I have encounter many young Israelis just out of of the army and believe me they were hated by tourists and locals alike for there total lack respect for anyone and aggressive behaviour.

Galaxy, telling a daughter/young woman to stay safe is not tantamount to saying some other girl should be raped instead. No one should be raped, in a relationship or not in a relationship. Of course far more women are killed by their partners but I think we all know that. That doesn’t mean that parents shouldn’t give their daughters a few pointers to try to keep themselves safe, in fact if parents didn’t do that, they would be negligent in my view.
Unfortunately, it is necessary for girls and women to take as many precautions as possible in order to keep themselves safe. No one is saying that this fine, obviously it shouldn’t be necessary, but it is a fact of life.

Do you think the partners of those men would be safe? If there are to be curfews and limits on behaviour those limits should be imposed on men not women.

Well I’d agree with you there Galaxy, but I think we have to deal with life as it is, not as we’d like it to be, where safety is concerned.

But it isn't working is it. That's the really sad thing about this advice - it has had zero impact as far as I can see. 1 in 5 women have been raped, some studies in younger women show it as high as 1 in 3. If we stopped talking about this and looked at other issues, porn, mens understanding of consent etc etc maybe things would change.

Quite honestly she's 19, if I remember what I was like at that age my judgement wasn't great either. A friend and I hitched hiked on one occasion along the Italian coast and got into a car with several Italian young men, we were lucky they didn't do anything untoward, but my friend and I often reminisce how naive and foolish we were to have done that and both our mothers would have had ten pink fits if they'd known.

How could this young woman have anticipated how low some young men stoop, she probably still had faith in human nature before they morphed into the macho pack mentality they displayed. Naive she may have been, but she's paid a hell of a price for that, this fleeting lack of judgement could well blight the rest of her life.

As for the young men, those who say their guilt hasn't been proved, neither has their innocence, how could it have been, questioned and then allowed to return home, forensic and video evidence disregarded. Influence in high places What has been proved however, this young woman has been made an example of in the most misogynistic way by a skewed police procedure and bogus court hearing.

You either believe in innocence until guilt is proved or you don't. I don't think we are a position to judge anything.

Show me one instance on this thread where I have said that the men are guilty.

I have said they should not have been allowed to leave the country, with the evidence found, presented and dismissed, before they faced the courts. They could have then proved their innocence if that was the case.

Their innocence was presumed but that presumption was not tested in court therefore unproven.

I feel very sorry for the girl, but do not really know enough about this case to comment.

Their innocence was presumed but that presumption was not tested in court therefore unproven.

I did not mean to suggest that you thought the men guilty, only that you did not think them innocent until proven guilty. Of course innocence is presumed. That's the whole point, isn't it? When you have been accused of a crime your innocence is presumed (supposed, surmised, inferred, taken as read) until one is proved guilty.

I wonder if they might have been made to stay in Cyprus had the girl not been convicted of lying? I'm not making any value judgment about the conviction, only that it happened.

Interesting that the men labelled the girl a "whore". So what does that make them then even if it was not rape? It makes them male whores.

The double standard is alive and well. Men apparently need have no self respect or responsibilty for their actions. They can shove their dicks in whoever they want, when they want while the female's life will be blighted for years, possibly for ever.

Remember the Ched Evans case? Deja vu.

The parallels are striking.

I wonder if they might have been made to stay in Cyprus had the girl not been convicted of lying?

The girl was found guilty of lying on Monday of this week, the 30th December 2019.

The men were allowed to fly back to Israel weeks before that date, in July 2019, when the woman allegedly 'withdrew' her accusation after the 8 hours in the police station without representation and months before her conviction for lying.

Those are facts as reported, not supposition.

A report in one newspaper says that they were 'acquitted' but they never appeared in court to face any charges, so there was no acquittal.

Their innocence was presumed but that presumption was not tested in court therefore unproven.
I stand by that statement - they were innocent until proved guilty. They were charged but then allowed to go, leave the country, without having their innocence tested and proven in court months before the girl was convicted of lying.

Did she not have the right to be thought innocent of lying until proven guilty too?

The above seems logical to me.

I agree, it seems logical.

Is it known when the girl was charged with lying?

No Galaxy, it’s not working (sorry for rather late response, had to go out to see my elderly mother.) I think all the points you raise are pertinent Galaxy, but with those things still not really being dealt with, I still think parents need to give their girls strategies to help them remain safe. Of course, it won’t protect every girl, but if it protects just one, it’s worth it.
When ours were teenagers, DH would tell them to ring him for a lift home, whatever the time, both our boys and our girl. He’d often get up out of bed and go to bring them home at two in the morning. I’ve no idea how they managed when they were at university, but we hoped to have given them the tools to avoid attack.
This poor girl in Cyprus has really suffered. Purplepatch is right, double standards are alive and well, particularly in more paternalistic societies. The men were sent home, and she has been called a liar, a whore, and she’s been insulted and punished. The judge has behaved appallingly in my opinion, he has humiliated her and treated her despicably. It’s high time our diplomatic services got her home.