Assigned female at birth

Herefornow

And the folk that think all trans women are sexual predators... Are you the same camp that believe all Muslims are terrorists?

Which folk are you talking about, Herefornow?

I have never seen anyone on GN suggest that all transwomen are sexual predators. Perhaps you could point us in the right direction, as I'm sure there are posters who would want to take this point of view to task.

And the folk that think all trans women are sexual predators... Are you the same camp that believe all Muslims are terrorists?

Only those who are incapable of critical thinking would come up with that analogy. What a deeply offensive remark to make, shame on you for that. Perhaps, before agreeing that that statement was acceptable, you might like to cast a thought for those in the Muslim community who are transgender and suffer under pain of death if their families and peers discover their "secret life". Absolutely shameful.

Galaxy

Could you point out where I have spread hatred VS.

Galaxy, She was very careful not to specify either who she means, or what the hatred consists of.
I’m giving her the benefit of the doubt about the spreading hatred.

After all she could mean the males’s hatred practised towards female patients by males pretending to be female so they have access to female patients for whatever reason.
Or men’s hatred of women’s success leading to them demanding to compete in female competitions where they have an unfair advantage.
Or male hatred of traumatised women who dare to feel unsafe and want males excluded from the female refuges.

It’s a difficult one to guess isn’t it?

Herefornow

And the folk that think all trans women are sexual predators... Are you the same camp that believe all Muslims are terrorists?

Not one single post on here, as far as I can see, has said that all trans women are sexual predators.

And to suggest that we / they think all Muslims are terrorists, is just insulting.

Clearly sexual predators - from any demographic are a minority and - particularly considering the number of Muslims living in the UK - the same principle applies to them. As does the number of terrorists belonging to any group / faith.

Trans woman does not = sexual predator
Muslim does not = terrorist

But sexual predators among trans women do exist, as do the activists who make threats against women and girls, as they did the other day, becoming violent in the process.

And so do terrorists - which is why government authorises surveillance and rehabilitation programmes.

They do however exist in sufficient numbers to warrant concern and the need to re-act and deal with them.

But they are still a minority. And in the case of TWAs - a very vocal and, often, aggressive minority. As witnessed.

Your comment has a lot in common with right-wing tabloid, heavy-print, headlines that shout about "Muslim Terrorists in the UK" or "PC gone mad" (when referring to LGBT matters"... you are both indulging in disingenuous, dramatic 'headlines' to engineer a thought-process in a particular way.

Women and girls want protection from predators. The general public wants to go about its business without the risk of being caught up in a terrorist incident. But no women - nor the general public a large- if they and it have common sense and intelligence, actually believe what you are suggesting.

Safe spaces for women and girls who have been sexually assaulted - by men - do not want to share that space with anyone who has a penis. And they want the right to say so without being labelled transphobic, or being threatened that they will be "raped to death". They want to go on marches without having to read the legend on a trans woman's T shirt "I punch terfs" written on a background of fake blood.

"The problem here is male violence. The category of self-declared trans women includes many with post-pubescent male strength, no surgical alteration of genitalia, and a sexual orientation towards females. And, even currently, gender reassignment can legally change sex category on birth certificates. This leaves the future of “same-sex” spaces unclear. Note that this is emphatically not a worry that self-declared trans women are particularly dangerous or more prone to sexual violence. It’s rather that we have no evidence that self-declared trans women deviate from male statistical norms in relevant ways. (The Spectator, 2018)

Perfectly identified and explained MollyGo

Excellent post, Molly.

The insults are scraping the barrel these days, aren't they?

Insults? From the be kind side? Surely not?

Doodledog

What needs explaining, trisher. I'm not sure I understand the question, but I'll have a go:

A transman is a woman who identifies as a man.

Women have cervixes, so transmen have cervices.

Cervixes can become cancerous, and smear tests can detect cervical cancer, so women are called for the tests.

Transmen, if they are being called for tests, must be on doctors' records as female, as that is what they are, so will be invited to attend for a test.

If they are not listed with a GP (perhaps because of moving house) their NHS number will identify them, but in any case they will be aware that their bodies are female whatever is going on in their heads.

Having made the decision to 'identify' as male, I assume that transmen will have considered their biology as much as, if not more than, the women who will also be invited for testing, so are at least, if not more likely to be aware of what a cervix is, and the fact that they have one.

So they are included in the invitations, and are at no more risk of cancer than other women. They are not being ignored, and they get the healthcare they need.

Have a missed anything?

You've missed out of course exactly what the gender critical reasoning is.
And the fact that as they no longer identify as a woman transmen may prefer not to be adressed as one.
So could you possibly explain what the gender critical say about transmen. I really don't under stand it. I have on many occasions seen posts saying transwomen are not women.
So are transmen not men and therefore women?

They are of the female sex. And it turns out that sex is quite important for transpeoples healthcare. It looks like there is not enough data about the affirmation model and some countries are now not following that approach Its not just gender critcal people who are saying this its those who are investigating the care on offer.

Galaxy

They are of the female sex. And it turns out that sex is quite important for transpeoples healthcare. It looks like there is not enough data about the affirmation model and some countries are now not following that approach Its not just gender critcal people who are saying this its those who are investigating the care on offer.

I'm not talking sex Galaxy I'm asking about gender. What do the gender critical believe about transmen. It's a simple question.

I have just told you what I think, I cant speak for anyone else.. I think people can dress and present however they want. I think the concept of gender is oppressive for both women and men.

*You've missed out of course exactly what the gender critical reasoning is.
And the fact that as they no longer identify as a woman transmen may prefer not to be adressed as one.
So could you possibly explain what the gender critical say about transmen. I really don't under stand it. I have on many occasions seen posts saying transwomen are not women.
So are transmen not men and therefore women?*
I can't explain what 'the gender critical' say or do about anything, as they are a disparate group of people; but I can give my own opinion which is not particularly controversial - transmen are female-bodied people who 'identify' as men.

Regarding the 'addressing' issue - whilst I am happy enough to address people as they choose on an individual basis, I object to the idea that everyone should be called by titles that assume that 'gender identity' is real in order to accommodate the preferences of those transpeople who express a preference.

I may be missing something - I have no idea what it is that you don't understand.

trisher I highlighted a problem with that thinking somewhere in that, trans women may very well need screening for breast cancer if they have breast tissue from transition. So when it comes to medical needs using the sex they were assigned at birth won't actually work

VioletSky

trisher I highlighted a problem with that thinking somewhere in that, trans women may very well need screening for breast cancer if they have breast tissue from transition. So when it comes to medical needs using the sex they were assigned at birth won't actually work

???

VS transwomen like all males have breast tissue and may get breast cancer. I believe transwomen's risk of breast cancer is substantially more than males who don't take female hormones. Of course this is an increase on a very small initial risk. Transmen have a lower risk of breast cancer than other females if they have had a double mastectomy as part of their transition, but should still be aware there is a risk however small. Sex at birth combined with trans identity and hormone treatments being taken on medical records should help ensure best practice treatment for all.

trisher transmen are transmen. Their biological sex is female. I wouldn't presume to speak for any or all transmen, but I have read from some they consider themselves to have a masculine gender identity, and are happiest when people assume they are of the male sex, even though they are biologically still female.
A sort of reversal of Debbie Hayton, a transwoman who always states she is a male biologically, even though she has had transgender surgery and likes to be perceived as being female.

Oh wow! so much hedging and refusing todiscuss gender but insisting on introducing sex. OK here's my perception of it.
There have been many posts on these threads stating categorically that transwomen are not women.
In which case transmen cannot be men. Which for the gender critical means they must remain women. But just not women who count. The wrong sort of women!

There is only the right sort of woman and the wrong sort of women now.

If you are the wrong sort of women your feelings, needs, opinions and voice aren't heard and your character may be fairly assassinated

That's so true VioletSky and for the gender critical
transmen are the wrong sort of women, and are not permitted o use language they prefer, and Intersectional femnists are the wrong sort of women who get called mysogynistic and heaps of other insults. So that's two sets of women discriminated against who will be next?

Mostly I find that , unless a person is causing harm to another person, folks generally speaking are accepting to other humans regardless of titles, gender, preference , love lives , habits etc.
Live & let live, as they saying goes ‘ Don’t sweat the small stuff ‘

Look trisher some people believe in an inner gender feeling others dont. Thats not hedging. What gender people feel they are is of no concern of mine.
Many women are religious I am not.

trisher@9:53 The wrong sort of women

VioletSky@9:59
There is only the right sort of woman and the wrong sort of women now.
Trisher and VS now classify women as the right sort and the wrong sort.

Should we be worried? Is this personal denigration of those who recognise women as adult human females?

*trisher@9:53 transwomen are not women.
In which case transmen cannot be men*

Hurray something I can agree on.
But I am preempting the transphobia accusation by reiterating that I have no issue with people being or declaring they are men or women as long the ill-intentioned among them do not use that claim to cheat in sport, gain access to women’s (AHF) safe spaces or lie by omission to obtain something which is not rightfully theirs.

There are 3 huge mistakes that are being made.

1. That only cis women have need of safe spaces

2. That trans women are growing up socially male, and that their experience matches a male identity.

3. That gender doesn't matter.

1 ignores the need of trans women or any other group to have access to safe spaces.

2 ignores that the increase in acceptance amongst families and young people means that trans people are growing up in the social circles relevant to them

3 ignores that we all use gender to express our sex. Ignores that we all assess others gender identity socially and ignores that gender identity isn't fixed for any of us, we have moved and widened the goal posts and gender allows us to measure that.

Galaxy

Look trisher some people believe in an inner gender feeling others dont. Thats not hedging. What gender people feel they are is of no concern of mine.
Many women are religious I am not.

Gender is a social construct that exists Galaxy you cannot just ignore it because you don't like it or it makes it difficult for you to reconcile your beliefs. People in everyday life are assigned gender roles for some that matches their physical sex for others it doesn't and they feel they need to change. But you can't get away with saying it's just a feeling.

I think you put that better than me trisher