Assigned female at birth

Yes, we might as well.

The whole point of language, which is, arguably, what sets us apart from the animals, is that words are a shared code for concepts. If we use words interchangeably, they cease to have meaning, so communication is impossible.

I have asked on another thread for a definition of 'woman' and 'man' (and not for the first time), but as usual, was met with a refusal to do so, along with a gaslighting 'reason' for why the refusal was my fault.

Without knowing what TRAs mean by the basic concepts in the 'gender' arguments, we will go round in circles. We (those who question the possibility of changing sex) are told that we are transphobic because we don't accept that people can 'just know that they are a woman (or a man)', but are never told what a 'woman' or a 'man' actually is, beyond something vague about 'presentation' and/or politics. It is clear what the terms mean biologically - there is no ambiguity there, but as soon as it gets tricky the TRAs back off and refuse to engage. It is frustrating.

I remember you asking before doodledog for a definition of a man or a woman and you were met by silence. I wonder why some of folks are reluctant to give a straightforward answer. ?

Well I suppose it would be possible to state that a child is born which fits the profile of what was once described as male or female, but will choose / or not to change at any given time in the future,But eventually it will go in circles… it’s just words we use that all can under stand , even if they dislike said words…..

As there appears to be such difficulty in clarifying what a woman is, perhaps it might be easier if they could determine what a man is? And what differentiates them from women? Would that be a starting point? At least that way, 50% of the population could be accounted for.

? Good idea, who’s going to start..?

What is a man?
If he’s like my DH, then he’s clean, well presented, caring, hardworking, a risk taker (get off that ladder!) and willing to walk the dog in the pouring rain! He’s also strong, muscular, and deep voiced, which would qualify him to be mistaken for a tw by some people.
If I describe him like trisher et al like to describe women, he’s an ejaculator, a penis-haver, a scrotum-haver and a prostate haver.

Most importantly he’s male, which entitles him to be called a man.
Your version of a man?

I think that men come in all shapes and sizes, and all personality types. They can be gentle or fierce, camp or macho, kind or cruel, loud or quiet, gay or straight, and all points in between any of those things. I love some of them with all my heart, and find others deeply unloveable.

What they all have in common, and what makes them all men is their male gametes. It may be that nothing else links them but that one immutable thing; but that always will, whichever gender norms they choose to take on board or which ones they reject.

Well, bringing men down to the sum of their body parts and bodily functions, which seems to be the character indicator for identifying women; men are penis people. They have an Adam's apple which I've always thought is similar to a cockerel's wattle. Usually more hirsute than women, even on their hands, nose and ears. And they have balls. Which should have been given to the women really, because it's women who have the balls to keep on fighting their corner and just WILL NOT give up, move over, make space, be quiet or that passive aggressive golden oldie be kind.

trisher

argymargy

@Doodledog I no longer know which side I'm on here and which posters are pro or anti, however I disagree with this:

There is no need for anyone to say or do anything. As I said upthread, all that needs to happen is that everyone is invited to come in for a smear test.

As I think we previously agreed, the language included in this invitation is both unnecessarily confusing and potentially offputting. Cervical screening only reaches around 75% of eligible women/persons and the NHS should be making every effort to entice the 25% who don't take it up. Using uncommon (for many) phrases like "assigned female at birth" is not helpful, so for that reason someone DOES need to do something.

Do you have any evidence about the people who are not taking up the test argymargy is it possible that a large proportion of them are transmen or non-binary and that in fact is why we need assigned female atbirth to ensure they are reached.

Are you having a laugh? A large proportion of the 1 in 4 eligible women not accessing cervical screening are trans men? The reasons for not taking it up are explored here: www.cancerresearchuk.org/health-professional/screening/cervical-screening#cervical_increase2
Transgender is mentioned but the tiny number of people involved in no way justifies using this jargon phrase in the invitation, which could put off other reluctant women.

argymargy

trisher

argymargy

@Doodledog I no longer know which side I'm on here and which posters are pro or anti, however I disagree with this:

There is no need for anyone to say or do anything. As I said upthread, all that needs to happen is that everyone is invited to come in for a smear test.

As I think we previously agreed, the language included in this invitation is both unnecessarily confusing and potentially offputting. Cervical screening only reaches around 75% of eligible women/persons and the NHS should be making every effort to entice the 25% who don't take it up. Using uncommon (for many) phrases like "assigned female at birth" is not helpful, so for that reason someone DOES need to do something.

Do you have any evidence about the people who are not taking up the test argymargy is it possible that a large proportion of them are transmen or non-binary and that in fact is why we need assigned female atbirth to ensure they are reached.

Are you having a laugh? A large proportion of the 1 in 4 eligible women not accessing cervical screening are trans men? The reasons for not taking it up are explored here: www.cancerresearchuk.org/health-professional/screening/cervical-screening#cervical_increase2
Transgender is mentioned but the tiny number of people involved in no way justifies using this jargon phrase in the invitation, which could put off other reluctant women.

I'm sorry you feel asking if there is any evidence is "Having a laugh" Thank you for the link I looked at it.
It says

Some groups with lower participation include (3):

those aged 25–29 and those above 50
those living in areas of high deprivation
those with a learning or physical disability
ethnic minority communities – note disparity varies by ethnic minority group
lesbian and people who are bisexual (1)
the transgender community
It doesn't give any figures for the numbers from each category but I don't see why including a phrase which would certainly encourage one of those categories to use the service would in fact put off other women.

@trisher the "are you having a laugh" comment was to do with your suggestion that a "large proportion" of the 3.5 million women who do not take up cervical screening in England are trans men.

Re your post yesterday @ 18.03 Doodledog, no you're definitely nor losing the plot but if you, I and all of the brilliant posters on this thread are, to quote the words from a Bowie song. 'I'd rather be with the madmen walking free'.

I’m still waiting for the proof that being a transman means they don’t know if they are really female and they don’t know if they have a cervix.
Your implication that trans men are thick is unkind and untrue but . . .
That’s nice trisher.

I don't see why including a phrase which would certainly encourage one of those categories to use the service would in fact put off other women.

So you seriously think that 'woman' (or just 'please come along for a smear test') would put off transmen, but 'as you have been assigned female at birth' wouldn't make at least be incomprehensible to some women, who would assume that this didn't apply to them?

If you are including those with a learning disability, those in AHDs (particularly if they have low levels of educational attainment) and those from ethnic minorities where levels of English are low, then I think it's a given that a lot of women will be baffled by what is a clumsy phrase at best, and Doublespeak at worst.

Given that transmen must know what being female entails (as they have opted out of what they perceive to be 'behaving as' such), I can see no reason, other than 'I refuse to answer to that' why transmen wouldn't understand a simple invitation to a smear. There is no need to explain that the invitation has been issued because they are, (or once were, if you prefer) women - or perhaps you could explain why doing so is necessary?

Sorry - the first sentence of that post is not my words - it is a quote and should have been emboldened.

And Smileless, I'm quite content, they're all as sane as me ?

Indeed Doodledog.

I’m in the sane group too.

trisher I did post a link to what gender dysphoria is and the impact that can have on what services trans people make use of before.

That's what we need trans inclusive language. It doesn't change us, it just includes them.

We can still say Merry Christmas, sing baa baa blacksheep and refer to ourselves as women. It's a wonderful day

Doodledog, we still seem to be missing alternative definitions of man and woman.
Is that because man is male and woman is female - and the additional mention of gametes serves to confirm that?

VioletSky

trisher I did post a link to what gender dysphoria is and the impact that can have on what services trans people make use of before.

That's what we need trans inclusive language. It doesn't change us, it just includes them.

We can still say Merry Christmas, sing baa baa blacksheep and refer to ourselves as women. It's a wonderful day

It is indeed VioletSky. It's funny though isn't it transwomen are blamed for all sorts of things, transmen are now not permitted any form of language which includes them. That's the trouble with discrimination there's that many rules to apply I can't keep up with them. Still the sun is shining.

That’s nice trisher.??

Oh dear trisher
When you say ‘transmen are now not permitted any form of language which includes them’ it’s only true in your world.

That’s the trouble with your constant discrimination, but as you say, the sun is still shining, so that’s nice trisher.

It is indeed VioletSky. It's funny though isn't it transwomen are blamed for all sorts of things, transmen are now not permitted any form of language which includes them. That's the trouble with discrimination there's that many rules to apply I can't keep up with them. Still the sun is shining.

This post makes no sense, in the context of this thread. What rules are being applied here? I have asked why you think that transmen would be put off coming for a test if they were just invited to come in for a test, but you would prefer to include the term 'assigned female at birth', despite your concern for those who have English as a SOL, may be of low educational attainment and/or other barriers to understanding, but you have ignored the question in favour of comments about the weather.

How does 'you have been invited to attend on X date for a smear test' not include transmen? You really seem to be making problems where none exist.

Doodledog

*It is indeed VioletSky. It's funny though isn't it transwomen are blamed for all sorts of things, transmen are now not permitted any form of language which includes them. That's the trouble with discrimination there's that many rules to apply I can't keep up with them. Still the sun is shining.*

This post makes no sense, in the context of this thread. What rules are being applied here? I have asked why you think that transmen would be put off coming for a test if they were just invited to come in for a test, but you would prefer to include the term 'assigned female at birth', despite your concern for those who have English as a SOL, may be of low educational attainment and/or other barriers to understanding, but you have ignored the question in favour of comments about the weather.

How does 'you have been invited to attend on X date for a smear test' not include transmen? You really seem to be making problems where none exist.

Well the obvious comment after that would probably be "Why? I'm a transman" answer ^You were assigned female at birth.