Assigned female at birth

Maybe trisher typed it all out then thought better of it and never posted it?

FarNorth

Maybe trisher typed it all out then thought better of it and never posted it?

Oh.

What a lot of fuss over nothing then.

Oh look, another male professional sportsperson who has decided he's a woman. Emily Davies, a 6'2" cyclist can now compete against women in the Women's Elite Squad. So another natal woman to be pushed out of a place that she'll have spent a lifetime practising and competing for. But it's all good isn't it? - we need to give these men space to be their authentic selves.

Very glad to see Sharon Davies and Sonia O'Sullivan adding their voices of disquiet about this increasing problem in professional sports arenas.

It's incomprehensible, isn't it?

I mean, if these men 'feel like women', (whatever that means) they can 'live as women' in their private lives and still compete in male teams/races. That would make so much more sense. It can only be because of the prize money that they don't do so, really.

https://www.gransnet.com/uploads/talk/202203/medium-469605-fonpc2ewyaciwxw.png https://www.gransnet.com/uploads/talk/202203/medium-383407-screenshot-20220324-181732.png

Ryan McKinnon, aka Rachel McKinnon, aka Veronica Ivy middle aged and overweight has recently 'won' first place from a woman who has, I've no doubt, been working hard in her sport.
He has also, of course, pushed all the other women into a lower place too.

Also the simple fun of taking part Doodledog.

I particularly enjoyed the comment above that photograph FarNorth! Not only do we force women to compete and lose against men, but we force them to lose against old, wobbly, porky men just to rub our nose in the fact that yes, when it comes to brute force men will overpower us and we'd better submit or else. They speak for me.

It’s cheating, plain and simple.

You can dress it up as inclusivity (it isn’t, it’s excluding females).

You can label it as increasing trans-acceptance. By whom? Many trans are ashamed of these athletes and the reflection on transpeople.

You can say you believe TWAW, (but that’s factually, biologically and scientifically incorrect. Repeating a lie doesn’t make it true, even if you change the meaning of words to try and make it so).

It’s cheating.

Do we think Sebastian Coe is a transphobe and all the other insults lobbed at people who question the TRA’s ideology?

www.theguardian.com/sport/2022/mar/21/coe-warns-transgender-athletes-pose-risk-to-integrity-of-womens-sport?CMP=Share_iOSApp_Other

The level of childishness from the GC on here is something to behold. Really.

As we're frequently reminded, bits of the forums end up in the media. Most of this thread really doesn't do the Gender Critical cause any favours. I'm not of course referring to the areas you actually discuss the topic, those bits I may well disagree with, but they're debate.

I'm talking about the insults, the gloating, the cheerleader affirmations and pre-teen level of use of emojis. I'm bemused by the need for it. I presume it's some sort of group bonding/team building thing.

Chewbacca

I particularly enjoyed the comment above that photograph FarNorth! Not only do we force women to compete and lose against men, but we force them to lose against old, wobbly, porky men just to rub our nose in the fact that yes, when it comes to brute force men will overpower us and we'd better submit or else. They speak for me.

Me too.

This is why I think the TRA movement is founded on misogyny. Nobody who respected or cared for women would buy into something that reduces women to a 'weaker sex'. Having single sex classes (of various types - not just in sport) allowed women to compete, or to exist on their own terms, and to mix and compete with men when biology wasn't an issue.

Those things were fought for - men didn't just hand them over. Now that women are, at least in 'The West', equal, there are those who want to restore what they see as the natural order of things, and one way of doing that is to confront us with men's superior strength. So yes, 'compete' in sports teams, stand in changing rooms with their penis on display, so women and girls are intimidated, push into events that celebrate women, silence anyone who speaks out, don't let women have any space to themselves, remove words from the language, so that even if we can find the space to speak to one another we won't have the words.

Are these the actions of people who care about women?

GagaJo

The level of childishness from the GC on here is something to behold. Really.

As we're frequently reminded, bits of the forums end up in the media. Most of this thread really doesn't do the Gender Critical cause any favours. I'm not of course referring to the areas you actually discuss the topic, those bits I may well disagree with, but they're debate.

I'm talking about the insults, the gloating, the cheerleader affirmations and pre-teen level of use of emojis. I'm bemused by the need for it. I presume it's some sort of group bonding/team building thing.

This is why I'm not really bothering to comment much

I spend a lot of time explaining empathy to children because there is no point just saying "stop that" and "that's not kind". You have to get down on their level and help them understand how the other child felt.

No one should have to try and do that with grown adults just so that everyone can participate on the playground (discussion).

GagaJo I’ve never claimed to be GC or not, but you keep referring to anyone who disagrees with you as GC. Is that your Go-to phrase when you don’t want to admit you’re wrong?
That’s nice GagaJo.

GagaJo, do you read posts selectively? You really can't be serious when you talk about insults by so-called GC feminists, as though they never come the other way?

As for 'debate', what debate comes from the TRA side of the argument? All we hear is:
TWAW - we ask why, the answer is 'because I believe it'. When we ask 'What is a woman, then? We are ignored, or told it's a trick question!

Or You aren't kind, which is meaningless.

Or transpeople only want to live quietly' but when we give examples of how that is not always the case, there is no reply, or you accuse us of 'catastrophising' when we point in the direction of a 'cis man nut job' (your words) who is headlining at an event to celebrate women.

What sort of comments are 'the media' going to get from that level of 'debate'?

As for insults, I have been told that I am unworthy of respect, that I don't have women's well being at heart, that I advocate violence - and that's just today! Please don't take the moral high ground - you have no room to do so.

I'm with all the people on Mumsnet who are against all the trans women who are trying to eradicate me, it's not all trans people by a long way, but a lot them saying that I'm a TERF for saying that I am a woman who was born female. Doodledig , Rosie and Chewbacca put my point of view much better than I can

GagaJo and trisher

Gender Critical to my mind was a polite term but maybe its not an accurate one.

Perhaps it's better to use Anti Trans Activists ar ATA

Because people aren't realising that their words in these very public discussions are having an impact.

Or perhaps they do and they don't care but I wouldn't want to judge unfairly.

Crimes against trans people are rising in parallel to this debate. Quadrupled in fact since it began.

Words have power which we all must hold ourselves accountable for.

In the same way that hate crime rose against migrants before and after Brexit because people felt empowered to say whatever they wished, it's happening here.

This is why I remain moderate in these discussions. I do not want to empower trans activists with my words and I don't condone empowering anti trans activists either.

grannysyb

I'm with all the people on Mumsnet who are against all the trans women who are trying to eradicate me, it's not all trans people by a long way, but a lot them saying that I'm a TERF for saying that I am a woman who was born female. Doodledig , Rosie and Chewbacca put my point of view much better than I can

grannysyb Do you mind me asking if your friends feel the same as you? Do you think that people in general (not just online) are waking up to the fact that it is not 'kind' to sit back when women are being pushed aside?

You're quite right grannysyb; the sheer numbers of knowledgeable, articulate and independent younger women on Mumsnet never ceases to inspire me; the vast majority of them are singing from the same hymn sheet and they obviously make a mockery of the assertions we so often hear on GN that "it's only you older people who are bothered by the trans issues; younger people are totally on board with it"; I dare them to go over there and say it! I admire that they can see the way their futures as women is going down and what they're in danger of losing and they won't give in without a fight. They arm each other with knowledge, information and an awareness of any avenues where they can get their voices heard. And, like here on GN, the dissenters are small in number - very much a minority and much challenged. I've learnt a great deal from mumsnetters and, it's because of them and their willingness to stick their heads above the parapet and shout as loudly as they can, that I get the resources to do the same. More power to them!

Doodledog

Chewbacca

I particularly enjoyed the comment above that photograph FarNorth! Not only do we force women to compete and lose against men, but we force them to lose against old, wobbly, porky men just to rub our nose in the fact that yes, when it comes to brute force men will overpower us and we'd better submit or else. They speak for me.

Me too.

This is why I think the TRA movement is founded on misogyny. Nobody who respected or cared for women would buy into something that reduces women to a 'weaker sex'. Having single sex classes (of various types - not just in sport) allowed women to compete, or to exist on their own terms, and to mix and compete with men when biology wasn't an issue.

Those things were fought for - men didn't just hand them over. Now that women are, at least in 'The West', equal, there are those who want to restore what they see as the natural order of things, and one way of doing that is to confront us with men's superior strength. So yes, 'compete' in sports teams, stand in changing rooms with their penis on display, so women and girls are intimidated, push into events that celebrate women, silence anyone who speaks out, don't let women have any space to themselves, remove words from the language, so that even if we can find the space to speak to one another we won't have the words.

Are these the actions of people who care about women?

Anyone who imagines men have "handed over" women's sport is really unaware of what is really happening and who controls sport. It certainly isn't women.
As for silencing it isn't one sided any more than abuse is. You only have to read these threads to realise that.

Are you all aware of the reputation Mumsnet has for fostering GC? They also have a bit of a reputation for not being particularly gay friendly.

Fair enough, if thats what you believe in, it's a great place to find your tribe. But let's not pretend there is debate happening on there. It is transphobic.

Anyone who imagines men have "handed over" women's sport is really unaware of what is really happening and who controls sport. It certainly isn't women.

Now you really have impressed me trisher. I honestly had no idea that your ear was closer to the ground of elite sports than Seb Coe, Sharon Davies and Sonia O'Sullivan. That's so comforting to know that the biggest voices in professional sports are talking bilge and that, actually, you know better. Phew! I was worried there.

Yeah, you're right Gagajo. said no one

Gagajo I was, I said a few days ago that more and more platforms are not allowing some of the language that's still OK here, that's probably why

Chewbacca

Yeah, you're right Gagajo. --said no one--

Google it. There are plenty of articles about it. It was big in the media a couple of years ago, trended on Twitter.

What language is it that you would like to control VS?