Assigned female at birth

I was wondering how many times on these threads it has been posted that transwomen don't really look like/dress like/behave like natal women? Such comments are transphobic
Transphobia is an emotional disgust toward individuals who do not conform to society's gender expectations. Similar to homophobia, the fear or aversion to homosexuals (e.g., Weinberg, 1972), transphobia involves the feeling of revulsion to masculine women, feminine men, cross-dressers, transgenderists, and/or transsexuals... The "phobia" suffix is used to imply an irrational fear or hatred, one that is at least partly perpetuated by cultural ideology. (Hill and Willoughby 2005: 91)
Sums up a lot of the opinons expressed on these threads..

I don't think that saying that someone with a penis on show is not even trying to look like a woman is phobic, though.

Seriously - if we are told that being a woman is a nebulous concept that can't be put into words, even by people who are women themselves, and that people who not only have penises, but who flaunt them at women, or (worst case scenario) use them to rape women, how are we meant to accept that transwomen are women? How?

Someone please answer that, as I just don't understand how it's meant to work.

Trisher, I know this will be a waste of time but you simply refuse to understand when you post
The "phobia" suffix is used to imply an irrational fear or hatred

-the fear of the supposed TW on that ward of traumatised women was neither irrational nor hatred. Some were there because their attack by a male, or someone they believed to be female, but wasn’t, had caused their breakdown. Some were suffering from paranoia related to males. Although . . . I suppose you or “someone”, would refer to both those as irrational fears.
Rather, the hatred was being displayed by the supposed TW. Possibly he hated them for being the female he wasn’t and could never be. Who knows? Displaying as a male on a female ward and declaring he couldn’t be moved? That sort of behaviour is definitely irrational.

No Doodledog; that's not what's being said but, for those who have firmly placed themselves in the position of being transactivists apologists, and running out of excuses to explain why men are hounding and threatening vulnerable women from having any platform whatsoever, their stance is understandable. The message sent from the TRAs last night was simply "We don't give a damn what your experiences are. We couldn't care less that you too have suffered violence, abuse and fear; you aren't important, we are what matters. We will harass you, threaten you, violate you until you are silent." And it appears that the allies of the transgender activists are cool with that because, afterall, words matter.

Yes, the misogyny is clear to see.

I know I've said it before, but the 'akin to homophobia' trope is so wearing. It just doesn't stand up to any sort of scrutiny, is hotly disputed by many gay people, and is such a cliche that I would be embarrassed to trot it out, even if I believed it.

It is not 'feminine' (whatever that means) transpeople who are being objected to. It is the bearded, gruff-voiced, penis-waving brigade, who are, as you say, Chewbacca, simply asserting their maleness in female spaces who trouble so-called GCFs.

How many times do we have to say that we are not transphobic, and are, in fact, supportive of 'genuine' (I know!) transpeople who just want to live their lives?

Chewbacca

No Doodledog; that's not what's being said but, for those who have firmly placed themselves in the position of being transactivists apologists, and running out of excuses to explain why men are hounding and threatening vulnerable women from having any platform whatsoever, their stance is understandable. The message sent from the TRAs last night was simply "We don't give a damn what your experiences are. We couldn't care less that you too have suffered violence, abuse and fear; you aren't important, we are what matters. We will harass you, threaten you, violate you until you are silent." And it appears that the allies of the transgender activists are cool with that because, afterall, words matter.

I hope then Chewbacca that you are not trying to imply that any of the people who have posted support for transpeople on GN are in any way included in this. I (and the others )have posted many times our condemnation of all violence or threatening behaviour no matter who is responsible.
Trying to accuse us of supporting violence only serves to. show desperation.
I'll try once more. I do not agree with or support any violence or threats against anyone no matter what their views, gender, sex, sexual proclivity, political alegiance or any other designation which is used to divide human beings. It is all wrong.
Peace and love Chewbacca Peace and love.

Would you please respond to your direct accusation that my pointing out that a poetry event moving online was not cancellation (and in fact opened it up to more people) was the same as supporting violence, trisher?

Or is it ok for you to throw around libellous accusations, but different when you read them into the comments of others?

trisher and when you see that translates to attacks on lesbians or other masculine looking woman...

It's very obvious it is transphobia

Doodledog

Would you please respond to your direct accusation that my pointing out that a poetry event moving online was not cancellation (and in fact opened it up to more people) was the same as supporting violence, trisher?

Or is it ok for you to throw around libellous accusations, but different when you read them into the comments of others?

Doodledog the organisers have said they would move the event on-line .It hasn't happened yet so to all intents and purposes the event no longer exists therefore it is cancelled.I've been on the website and tried to find tickets for the on-line event there aren't any. If and when it appears I will apologise until then it's cancelled. It no longer exists. It is a dead parrot event.

Was it a dead parrot you had booked for trisher? That’s like saying it dreadful that a bus I wasn’t going to catch has been cancelled.
I didn’t hear you when complain when activists were hurling abuse and cancelling prominent females who were brave enough to be truthful and say sex is immutable.
That’s nice trisher.

VioletSky

trisher and when you see that translates to attacks on lesbians or other masculine looking woman...

It's very obvious it is transphobia

What attacks?

trisher

Doodledog

Would you please respond to your direct accusation that my pointing out that a poetry event moving online was not cancellation (and in fact opened it up to more people) was the same as supporting violence, trisher?

Or is it ok for you to throw around libellous accusations, but different when you read them into the comments of others?

Doodledog the organisers have said they would move the event on-line .It hasn't happened yet so to all intents and purposes the event no longer exists therefore it is cancelled.I've been on the website and tried to find tickets for the on-line event there aren't any. If and when it appears I will apologise until then it's cancelled. It no longer exists. It is a dead parrot event.

What has any of that got to do with you accusing me of supporting violence?

trisher

Doodledog

Would you please respond to your direct accusation that my pointing out that a poetry event moving online was not cancellation (and in fact opened it up to more people) was the same as supporting violence, trisher?

Or is it ok for you to throw around libellous accusations, but different when you read them into the comments of others?

Doodledog the organisers have said they would move the event on-line .It hasn't happened yet so to all intents and purposes the event no longer exists therefore it is cancelled.I've been on the website and tried to find tickets for the on-line event there aren't any. If and when it appears I will apologise until then it's cancelled. It no longer exists. It is a dead parrot event.

They say a new date will be scheduled. From their website We will be in touch with ticket bookers next week. next week, not today or yesterday or even tomorrow. You'll hear from them next week trisher always assuming you had a ticket booked for the performance.

Whether or not trisher ever intended to go in person, or decides to view the event online has nothing that I can see to do with the accusation that I support violence against transpeople (or anyone else for that matter). I do not, and never have, and I find the accusation offensive.

Doodledog

Whether or not trisher ever intended to go in person, or decides to view the event online has nothing that I can see to do with the accusation that I support violence against transpeople (or anyone else for that matter). I do not, and never have, and I find the accusation offensive.

Ditto Doodledog but it doesn't matter how many times I post I believe all violence is wrong I'm still accused of things I haven't said - see Mollygo 14.46.
If you have condemned the violence and threats which meant this event couldn't be held liveDoodledog I'm really pleased. But I'm afraid I must have missed that post. Please could you Quote or cut and paste it for me. Thanks.

Sorry for the distraction Doodledog I was just putting her right about the event being cancelled. It hasn't been. Yes it is grossly offensive, and you deserve a full apology

Rosie51

trisher

Doodledog

Would you please respond to your direct accusation that my pointing out that a poetry event moving online was not cancellation (and in fact opened it up to more people) was the same as supporting violence, trisher?

Or is it ok for you to throw around libellous accusations, but different when you read them into the comments of others?

Doodledog the organisers have said they would move the event on-line .It hasn't happened yet so to all intents and purposes the event no longer exists therefore it is cancelled.I've been on the website and tried to find tickets for the on-line event there aren't any. If and when it appears I will apologise until then it's cancelled. It no longer exists. It is a dead parrot event.

They say a new date will be scheduled. From their website We will be in touch with ticket bookers next week. next week, not today or yesterday or even tomorrow. You'll hear from them next week trisher always assuming you had a ticket booked for the performance.

If and when it appears I will apologise until then it's cancelled. It no longer exists. It is a dead parrot event.

Doodledog

Whether or not trisher ever intended to go in person, or decides to view the event online has nothing that I can see to do with the accusation that I support violence against transpeople (or anyone else for that matter). I do not, and never have, and I find the accusation offensive.

It is offensive and untrue and they will know it. It’s another lie like TWAW.

I have just taken part in a safeguarding course, which included the dangers of being a facilitator.
In relation to my work, it mentioned facilitating abuse of children by not tackling the possible causes, conditions and opportunities for abuse, by not being aware it may be occurring or if we ignore signs of abuse in the children we teach.

It isn’t sufficient to say that you would never condone harm of a child, mental or physical or just to acknowledge it happens. In order not to be a facilitator you must tackle the opportunities for abuse and identify potential abusers.

I sat there thinking, it isn’t sufficient for “someone” to say they don’t condone violence done by TRA and some TW or the cheating by some tw in female sport, or the harm done to females by allowing TW in female safe spaces.
In order not to be a facilitator, the “someones” must also acknowledge that certain conditions provide opportunities for that violence or harm to occur. e.g. Refusing to give support for safe spaces for women on the grounds that TW can be vulnerable too is being a facilitator for harm to women.

Mollygo

Doodledog

Whether or not trisher ever intended to go in person, or decides to view the event online has nothing that I can see to do with the accusation that I support violence against transpeople (or anyone else for that matter). I do not, and never have, and I find the accusation offensive.

It is offensive and untrue and they will know it. It’s another lie like TWAW.

I have just taken part in a safeguarding course, which included the dangers of being a facilitator.
In relation to my work, it mentioned facilitating abuse of children by not tackling the possible causes, conditions and opportunities for abuse, by not being aware it may be occurring or if we ignore signs of abuse in the children we teach.

It isn’t sufficient to say that you would never condone harm of a child, mental or physical or just to acknowledge it happens. In order not to be a facilitator you must tackle the opportunities for abuse and identify potential abusers.

I sat there thinking, it isn’t sufficient for “someone” to say they don’t condone violence done by TRA and some TW or the cheating by some tw in female sport, or the harm done to females by allowing TW in female safe spaces.
In order not to be a facilitator, the “someones” must also acknowledge that certain conditions provide opportunities for that violence or harm to occur. e.g. Refusing to give support for safe spaces for women on the grounds that TW can be vulnerable too is being a facilitator for harm to women.

FFS are you now equating women with children? How does that help? It's the infantalising of women that led to a lot of the restrictions put upon them.
I have always supported the law as it stands. The fact that I won't victimise transwomen to suit you just means I recognise people matter and no one should be abused.

No, to use your favourite phrase trisher,
* you’re twisting my words*.

If you have condemned the violence and threats which meant this event couldn't be held liveDoodledog I'm really pleased. But I'm afraid I must have missed that post. Please could you Quote or cut and paste it for me. Thanks.

Oh, is that the best you can do? I made no comment about the event other than to say that it wasn't cancelled. How does that equate to approving of violence, and why would you be 'really pleased' if I had said otherwise?

Maybe you could quote or cut and paste a comment from you where you say you believe the Earth to be round? I must have missed you saying that.

Mollygo

Children and young people can be trans.

So you would have to be careful that your knowledge and training does not allow you to express views that make you a facilitator for harm to trans children too.

But if you mean do I see the “someones” as facilitators, then yes I do.

As would anyone who says they work with children.

Really?

Because gender reassignment is a protected characteristic under the equality act. Safeguarding children means that trans children and young people must be supported to use the toilets that align with their gender identity.

So unless those are the rules you are following then you aren't safeguarding all children.

All children must be safeguarded, not just from "others" but from everyone. This is why you can report other staff to the designated safeguarding leads and why whistleblowing is in the training.

I don't really think anyone could suggest I don't follow my training to the letter. I've done the training on 3 levels.