Assigned female at birth

AcornFairy

My 15:45 post was supposted to be attached to Doodledog's 13:16 post!

Yes checking back Doodledog would mean mainstream media.

Rosie51

AcornFairy

My 15:45 post was supposted to be attached to Doodledog's 13:16 post!

Yes checking back Doodledog would mean mainstream media.

Many thanks Rosie51. That does make much more sense!!

AcornFairy

This is all fascinating stuff and I'm trying to educate myself. But a lot of it is going over my head. What has Methylsulfonylmethane got to do with any of this?

Nothing. Thank you for asking.

Sorry if I've confused people - I was confused myself, as I knew I hadn't posted about Methylwotsit .

Yes, I meant mainstream media. It tends to get abbreviated to MSM by people who think they are far too savvy to be taken in by things that mere mortals accept as truth; but they fail to understand that manipulation can work on many more levels than headlines in the Daily Mail.

It is (IMO) perfectly possible that 'culture wars' (and trans issues could be included in these, but there are many others) have been engineered deliberately to turn people against one another and weaken the support for politicians, and consequently the leadership that they could otherwise provide.

I don't think for a second that Putin invaded Ukraine because the West has been arguing over pronouns (as was suggested upthread), but I could be persuaded that the argument is one of many that have been planted to break up more established demographic groupings, and it's not beyond the realms of possibility that he was behind at least some of it.

good point in your final paragraph Doodle. IMO any suggestion that Putin "invaded Ukraine because the West has been arguing over pronouns" was absurd, but his desire to "break up more established demographic groupings" was not something I'd considered.

NanKate

Many of us on here stand for equality and are against discrimination, however it is watering down/phasing out of women that is our gripe, plain and simple.

What things can we do to make room for trans people, where let's face it very little room has existed in the past, while not watering down or phasing out women?

What things can we do that truely support and further the cause of both.

I'm not talking about which things people want stopped, because that gets covered alot, I'm looking for a fresh perspective. What CAN be done?

Genuine question.

Doodledog

Sorry if I've confused people - I was confused myself, as I knew I hadn't posted about Methylwotsit .

Yes, I meant mainstream media. It tends to get abbreviated to MSM by people who think they are far too savvy to be taken in by things that mere mortals accept as truth; but they fail to understand that manipulation can work on many more levels than headlines in the Daily Mail.

It is (IMO) perfectly possible that 'culture wars' (and trans issues could be included in these, but there are many others) have been engineered deliberately to turn people against one another and weaken the support for politicians, and consequently the leadership that they could otherwise provide.

I don't think for a second that Putin invaded Ukraine because the West has been arguing over pronouns (as was suggested upthread), but I could be persuaded that the argument is one of many that have been planted to break up more established demographic groupings, and it's not beyond the realms of possibility that he was behind at least some of it.

Agree with this.

I'm not talking about which things people want stopped, because that gets covered alot, I'm looking for a fresh perspective. What CAN be done?
Genuine question.

Genuine answer: for the ordinary trans community, who just want to get on with their lives in peace, openly and loudly condemn the violence and aggression that the trans activists are using against natal women, lesbians and gays and make it clear that it's "Not in My Name". As it currently stands, the trans activists are literally using physical violence, not just to further equal standing for the trans community, they're using it to diminish, silence and eradicate women.

Yes Chewbacca. Re your post at 02:am

Genuine answer: for the ordinary trans community, who just want to get on with their lives in peace, to openly and loudly condemn the violence and aggression that the trans activists are using against natal women, lesbians and gays and make it clear that it's "Not in My Name

It seems the essential way forward is, instead of allowing themselves to appear accepting of what is said about trans, the ordinary trans who want to live , and have been living peacefully must themselves take a stand the way you mention.
It’s women and women’s rights that some ill-intentioned trans and their vociferous supporters are trying to eradicate. Let’s have the ordinary trans stand up for the women they aspire to be rather than, by their silence, colluding with the other group.

Yes, the trans community need to challenge the trans activists who don’t represent the community and create anxiety, fear and anger.

Mmm I dont know, I am not sure that trans people have a duty to do that. Some men hurt and rape women, is it your husbands or sons responsibility to stand up and say not in my name. Obviously great if they do but I am not sure I expect it of all men.
For me its simple no men in womens spaces, women dont consent to that. And you cant change sex.

Herefornow

The best thing we CAN do is allow space for trans people to live their ordinary every day lives as who they are which is mostly individual like the rest of us.

The main problem is that the gender nonconforming are only an estimated 1% of British society. While in actual numbers its a lot, its not enough for some to change their lives to accomodate them.

If you look at the issues discussed on these threads, even where there are solutions people here agree on, out there, are a lot of voices saying that we shouldn't need to spend time and money changing policies and sometimes premises in order to "placate" trans people.

I suppose its simple for me because I accept trans women are women and so, the cost financially to support changes to enable women to live their best lives is worthwhile.

Some of the changes that have happened have gone a bit far in some areas, losing terms for women and being a bit moderate I'd say that actually, what existed should more easily have just been added too instead. At least people are trying though. I think that it will eventually settle into something that is recognisable to both trans women and women.

The only reason I think it is important to differentiate between trans women and women, is that allthough I believe we are all women and share commonalities in womanhood, like being more likely victims of discrimination and violence, as well as the things we all love about being a woman... There are differences between us, what we go through emotionally and our medical needs that need a targeted approach. There are also differences that affect thing like sports.

The process to legally change gender has been deemed too hard by some trans people and too easy by others and also there are risks of mistakes being made. The whole system from beginning to end needs to be safeguarded to keep everyone safe but I don't know what can be done to prevent men abusing the system as predators or to prevent people making the wrong choice to transition. I don't think we can eradicate those things completely but I think it's important to try, especially given the amount of attention this draws and the fear that has resulted.

Anyway I've lost my train of thought and tangents are happening but this is where I have currently ended up after talking through things on these threads.

Galaxy

*Mmm I don't know, I am not sure that trans people have a duty to do that. Some men hurt and rape women, is it your husbands or sons responsibility to stand up and say not in my name. Obviously great if they do but I am not sure I expect it of all men.
I don’t think men, or women if it comes to that stand up and say, Not in my Name, but
if I suggested that all men were rapists, there would justifiably be an outcry from men (and women) that not all men are rapists and those who are should be punished.
When they see the damage some ill-intentioned transwomen are causing, it would be good if those trans who deplore the damage were to make it clear that not all TW are the same and add their support to those trying to stop the damage.
A few thousand acknowledged TW marching With women in support of the campaign against violence against women and girls. Or even a less physical action e.g A few thousand Tweets from the silent majority of tw in support of what JKR or Maya Forstater or Kathleen Stock have been saying.

Also to add to that, I think there is another way language needs to change in these discussions.

I use the word "compromise" a lot because I thought it was a positive word, you know, compromise and make everyone happy.

But I think to a lot of women the word compromise implies loss. Loss of things they have fought hard for. Giving away what is theirs.

So make space or create space might be better because the implication is to add too, be bigger, be more than we are. That might feel more comfortable

No. We do not consent. Using a different phrase to get us to consent isnt going to work. We are saying no.

Compromise!
When a cuckoo chick settles in another bird’s nest and allows the chick entitled to be there to stay and receive the food and care to which it is entitled, that’s compromise- practised by many transwomen.
When a cuckoo chick takes over a nest and ejects with no compunction, the chicken that’s entitled to be there, that’s the action of an ill-intentioned transwoman who wants the only compromise to come from others.

VioletSky what is your definition of the word 'woman'?

But I think to a lot of women the word compromise implies loss. Loss of things they have fought hard for. Giving away what is theirs.

Do you mean like not getting raped and sexually assaulted in somewhere safe like..... erm..... a prison? Or a refuge? Or.... wait for it.... your hospital bed?
Or do you mean we should compromise on things like not getting attacked and beaten up because we hold a peaceful demonstration and walk down a street with a placard? A bit like women had to do in 1928 when they wanted to be heard and seen?
Or do you think we should be willing to compromise on things like the word "woman" being erased from feminine hygiene products, public health literature and health manuals so that were actually described as the sum of our body parts?
Or should we compromise on being told that we will lose our jobs, careers, livelihoods and reputations and face a court of law should we dare to question that a human being cannot change their biological sex?
Or should we compromise that, when a "person with a penis" has sexually assaulted or raped us and suddenly announces before his court appearance that, actually he's "a woman" that we must address him as "she/her" or face a criminal charge for "misgendering" our attacker?

Which of these do you suggest we compromise on VioletSky?

Prostate Cancer UK were asked why they continue to use the word 'men' while the word 'women' is being removed from similar campaigns relating to female people. This is what they said.

Are they wrong to take that view?
If not, why are other organisations, including the NHS, prioritising 'be kind to trans people' over effective communication with female people?

Interesting reply FarNorth I asked that question earlier on but no one could answer apparently. But the answer now raises another question: if the word "man" is appropriate for prostare cancer cgecks, why is "woman" not appropriate for cervical cancer checks, uterine cancer checks and breast cancer?

FarNorth it would be far more effective to send out letters addressed to Men and Transwomen. Equally letters could be addressed to Women and Transmen for cervical screening.
Some transwomen may not have ever known they have a prostate, or even live in the fantasy that with changing their gender, the prostate disappears.

VioletSky are you happy with this example of making space?

www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-10626265/Uni-Virginia-swimmer-hailed-heroine-coming-second-NCAA-final-trans-rival-Lia-Thomas.html

"Meet the REAL winner: University of Virginia swimmer Emma Weyant who is Olympic silver medalist is hailed as a heroine on social media after coming second in NCAA championships to controversial trans rival Lia Thomas"

"[Thomas's] controversial victory attracted a mixed reception, with boos heard ringing out among a smattering of cheers as Thomas was handed [his] trophy.

The UPenn swimmer won the 500 yard freestyle in Atlanta in a time of 4 minutes, 33.24 seconds on Thursday evening.

Just before Lia was crowned, the crowd were notably more enthusiastic when cheering for Weyant. She swam 4:34.99. "

I was born female, live as a woman, am married to a man, and have two daughters. I don’t give one, single, solitary, fake damn about how other people live their lives or what they call themselves. I am not bothered by trans people asking for kindness and respect. I am astounded at the vicious, hysterical, so called feminist anti trans rhetoric and the daily, even hourly, obsessive coverage of outrageous edge cases.

Here on mumsnet trans men are treated as race traitors who abandoned the female cause and trans women are treated as some kind of evil faith column, stealing our valor and erasing or diluting our identities as female.

It’s ridiculous and absurd and mean spirited. Parenthetically the links between authoritarian religions and reactionary governments, delusional cults like QANON, and the fostering of anti lgbtq politics and culture wars is well demonstrated. Just as racism and anti semitism were used as wedge cultural issues to create white nationalist and neo nazi solidarity (in the US and Hungary under Orban so the LGBTQ threat (and, of course, the children! The children! ) is now used as a convenient organizing tool for white nationalist movements today. it’s just dressed up Kinder Kutche Kirche for a new gullible population that lets itself be whipped into a frantic ferment to defend a way of life that is not, in fact, under threat.

. Bless we have never heard any of that nonsense before.

You are all so mean for discussing the rights of women. Stop it now.