Assigned female at birth

Has anyone received their funding from the white nationalists yet. They are so slow I am getting quite irritated.

You’re on gransnet at the moment, not gransnet Oldladynewlife.

vicsious, hysterical, so called feminist anti trans rhetoric…. Obsessive coverage of outrageous edge cases. That’s clearly your opinion. I disagree with you.

What’s your view on Lia Thomas being allowed to compete as a woman for example?

Galaxy nope, no approach to me from evangelicals, fundamentalists or white supremacists. I suspect my politics wouldn’t endear me to them

Oldladynewlife

I was born female, live as a woman, am married to a man, and have two daughters. I don’t give one, single, solitary, fake damn about how other people live their lives or what they call themselves. I am not bothered by trans people asking for kindness and respect. I am astounded at the vicious, hysterical, so called feminist anti trans rhetoric and the daily, even hourly, obsessive coverage of outrageous edge cases.

Here on mumsnet trans men are treated as race traitors who abandoned the female cause and trans women are treated as some kind of evil faith column, stealing our valor and erasing or diluting our identities as female.

It’s ridiculous and absurd and mean spirited. Parenthetically the links between authoritarian religions and reactionary governments, delusional cults like QANON, and the fostering of anti lgbtq politics and culture wars is well demonstrated. Just as racism and anti semitism were used as wedge cultural issues to create white nationalist and neo nazi solidarity (in the US and Hungary under Orban so the LGBTQ threat (and, of course, the children! The children! ) is now used as a convenient organizing tool for white nationalist movements today. it’s just dressed up Kinder Kutche Kirche for a new gullible population that lets itself be whipped into a frantic ferment to defend a way of life that is not, in fact, under threat.

Well at least the replies to you won't have you going to check that you actually wrote what you think you did in a circle of people who can read and comprehend English.. When it suits lol

Well done

To me the phrase that someone was assigned female at birth should mean that there had been doubt as to whether the new-born child was a hermaphrodite or not, or that there was something wrong with the appearance of the child¨s genitals.

So I fully understand why pinkprincess finds the wording odd.

If someone chooses to define themselves as male, although clearly in possession of female genitalia then it makes sense to offer them a cervical smear test or a mammography on equal footing with those females who define themselves as female, women or girls, but that was not the original issue here, was it?

A man who identifies himself as female would be well advised to avail himself of screening for testicular cancer of cancer of the prostrate, too.

Herefornow

Callistemon21

It is ridiculous and worrying because someone could answer that they may have been assigned female at birth but they now identify as male so wish to turn down the appointment.
That could cause problems for them in the future if they refuse to attend.

I do understand what you are trying to say with this, and it's a relevant sentiment, but i think it more likely that trans men would respond better to the term 'assigned female at birth' than to the term 'women'. Reverting to referencing the term women, alone, surely puts this trans men at greater risk than the term being currently used?

There is often an air about these things of 'well, in that case it'll be their fault for choosing to live that way'. Much the same attitude was had about gay people and hiv back in the day.

What does it matter to you what a stock letter uses for salutation, OP? Don't you have better things to do with your life?

I've actually never met a trans person who denied that sex is real. The issue is with gender. You are assigned a gender at birth based on what is known or observed about your sex. This is where the language about 'assigned whatever at birth' is talking about.

However, if we want to talk solely about sex and the facts of sex? Did you know that actually not everyone has xx or xy chromosomes? No really, look it up. This has been proven. And 1-2% of our several billion global population is intersex. That's about 400k people in the UK.

Just food for thought.

Why does it matter? It’s all just bollocks isn’t it?

But in this case, there are no bollocks involved apart from the wording of this letter because it’s about health services for women.

We’re supposed to meekly accept this ridiculous nonsense so as not to offend a very tiny minority of people <1% who dislike the word WOMAN.

Sex matters.

Gender is all about feelings and is mostly meaningless drivel. Stop referring to Gender when you actually mean women.

You refer to gay people and how it’s simply a bad attitude problem. Lesbian women also hate this perfidious erasure of the word WOMAN too.

Not seen anything of the kind here on GN oldladynewlife, you must be getting your sites mixed up.

That's what being assigned female or male at birth means to me grandtante and IMO to suggest it means anything different is ridiculous.

I took the trouble to read the quoted post from OLNL. I didn’t agree with most of it. Sounded like a great rant about something on Mumsnet and I wondered if someone had seen it on there and suggested they sign up on GN to post it. Have you been on GN long OLNL? If you have, I apologise for not noticing your name before.
The additional comment didn’t make sense to me but I suspect it was either insulting or a poor attempt at sarcasm.

herefornow said-
The issue is with gender. You are assigned a gender at birth based on what is known or observed about your sex. This is where the language about 'assigned whatever at birth' is talking about.

You are not assigned a 'gender' at birth. Your sex is observed and recorded.
Even for children whose sex is not obvious at birth, medical testing can ascertain what their sex is.

grandtante don't you think it weird that someone who is female would 'define themselves as male' (& vice versa) and expect to have everyone accept that as if it is factually correct - except maybe in a few cases where it is medically relevant, and not always even then?

Help for people's mental health problems shouldn't have to involve a huge game of let's pretend by the whole of the population.

Here is a snippet from the ongoing employment tribunal of Maya Forstater.
It shows a representative of her employer stating that the 'reality' of some people must not be shaken by reference to actual reality.

I'd be very interested if someone, oldladynewlife maybe, could explain why someone's idea of 'reality' should supersede actual reality and the accepted meanings of words.

Only just checking in and am at the parallels being drawn between women being concerned at the erosion of their rights and QANON!! Best laugh I've had for a while!

Such a shame that Mollymalone6 hasn't posted for a while.

What I'm hearing, bar one or two inspired comments, is that the way to solve everything is for transwomen to take themselves back off under the rock they came from.

So we'll just ignore the sky high suicide, murder, domestic violence, rape, and hate crime statistics for trans women and chalk that up to the price we pay for the status quo. It's not even a status quo where women have achieved equality with men, but apparently you like things as they've been. Thank god the young folk have more sense than us.

To deal with those issues, a good starting point would be to acknowledge them.
Not huddle together and deny they happen.

Do you mean in the uk herefornow. Thankfully the figures are very low for murder. There have also been warnings about how dangetous it is to use the suicide statistics in the way you are doing.

No one's suggesting that trans women "take themselves back off under the rock they came from" Herefornow. Why can't we have a sensible discussion?

If you wish to disagree with what's being said then you'd be much better off challenging what's actually being said.

Thank you for adding your voice Herefornow

Herefornow

What I'm hearing, bar one or two inspired comments, is that the way to solve everything is for transwomen to take themselves back off under the rock they came from.

So we'll just ignore the sky high suicide, murder, domestic violence, rape, and hate crime statistics for trans women and chalk that up to the price we pay for the status quo. It's not even a status quo where women have achieved equality with men, but apparently you like things as they've been. Thank god the young folk have more sense than us.

What you’re hearing is only things that support what you want to think is true.
If you’ve read anything on GN you must have read that most posters want only for the ill-intentioned TW to stop claiming female rights to jobs, safe spaces and the right not to find males cheating their way to dubious success by claiming to be women. If you approve of those ill-intentioned, you have my deepest contempt, or my sympathy if you can’t help it.
As for young folk having more sense, I have personal experience of coping with girls being bullied by trans boys who have found power by demanding that fellow pupils who do things like use the wrong pronoun (these are all girls in school uniform so indistinguishable) are punished for being transphobic. The staff are evidently powerless to stop it and award detentions and demerits on the word of the ‘in’ gang.

When I met with some of the girls at the root of the movement and suggested that they would be happier at an all boys or at least a mixed school the answer from one * was, “Where’s the fun in that?”
The ill-intentioned know exactly what they are doing, but they don’t have the support of most trans.

What I'm hearing, bar one or two inspired comments, is that the way to solve everything is for transwomen to take themselves back off under the rock they came from.

... that's what you are hearing. Not what is being said.

It's not even a status quo where women have achieved equality with men, but apparently you like things as they've been

No, we don't. Which is why women still fight against patriarchical ideology.

Odd isn't it how what is actually said is digested and regurgitated by some as something completely different.

Hi Pinkprincess. Would you prefer your granddaughter's letter to say, "because we believe you have a cervix*? Perhaps that would be more relevant? But the NHS has a history of choosing names for its clinics that don't meet with patients' wholehearted approval. Eg "Heart Failure Clinic" (for people whose hearts are functioning less well than before, but still functioning! and "Rehabilitation" for people who may never have had an addiction problem). None of these names change the function nor the usefulness of the service offered.

Herefornow, thank you so much for introducing the many variations of chromosomal and hormonal sex/gender decision-making. Presumably there are others, but I did discover about these more than fifty years ago.
I think that perhaps A problem here is that whilst it may not be useful to divide humans into male and female, it may help to divide us into those who want to keep learning new things and those who are frightened to have their concepts questioned.
I do think that it might be better to discuss some of the issues on this post in a more generalised way, but appreciate the value of a letter shown to a grandmother (perhaps specifically to wind "her" up?) becoming the trigger for the discussion.
All hail anyone questioning the singularity/duality of so-called sex/gender. May we, in the fulness of time, learn how to resolve the issues of who we allow to compete against each other in sports. I am looking forward to the hockey game where only people who play as poorly as me are allowed to play, regardless of whether their genitalia hangs or is "neatly" tucked up.

A problem here is that whilst it may not be useful to divide humans into male and female, it may help to divide us into those who want to keep learning new things and those who are frightened to have their concepts questioned.

Derisory. And disingenuous... because you know well that this is not the issue.

Your comment is equally as provocative as the OP that engendered the subsequent discussion.

You believe a more generalised approach to discuss these issues "might be better"? There is nothing 'generalised' about your posting.

it may help to divide us into those who want to keep learning new things and those who are frightened to have their concepts questioned.

And another way of putting it is: those who want to keep denying that women are at risk from sexually predatory men who present as women so that they can access women when they are at their most vulnerable. And those who are so desperate to be seen as down wid da kids that they're happily throwing women under a bus, whilst smiling beningnly and telling us that they're just trying to be kind to penis people.

So we'll just ignore the sky high suicide, murder, domestic violence, rape, and hate crime statistics for trans women

Not wanting to ignore all that hi there, could you give us some figures for those things, please?

Sorry not hithere but herefornow.