Assigned female at birth

Would you prefer your granddaughter's letter to say, "because we believe you have a cervix? Perhaps that would be more relevant?
Not speaking for PP here, but why not just invite the granddaughter in for a smear? I've never needed to have things like that explained to me. 'Dear Mrs Dog, You are invited to come for a mammogram as we believe you have breasts' would be equally ridiculous. Also, as I suspect you are aware, Heart Failure is a specific diagnosis that does not mean that a heart has stopped functioning, and rehabilitation is not just about addiction, but any post-operative recovery.

Herefornow, thank you so much for introducing the many variations of chromosomal and hormonal sex/gender decision-making. Presumably there are others, but I did discover about these more than fifty years ago.
Go you. Did you get recognised for your discovery? Shame you didn't learn to differentiate between sex and gender though - there is more than a '/' that separates them.

I think that perhaps A problem here is that whilst it may not be useful to divide humans into male and female, it may help to divide us into those who want to keep learning new things and those who are frightened to have their concepts questioned.
Why might that help, and who would benefit? My own thoughts are that dividing humans into male and female is often useful - eg for competitive sport where strength is relevant, for situations where there are cultural expectations that they aren't mixed, and where there is risk to the female because of the possibility of being overpowered by a stronger male in a situation where there are no witnesses and clothing is removed. So there you are. We disagree. Did anyone ask you whether you felt that your views should over-rule centuries of custom and practice, incidentally? Nobody asked me for my views on the matter, and no women I know have been consulted on the matter either.

All hail anyone questioning the singularity/duality of so-called sex/gender. May we, in the fulness of time, learn how to resolve the issues of who we allow to compete against each other in sports.
Have we gone back to 1780? A pox on all who wish to diminish the hard-won rights of the female of the species! Cursed be they who confound the likelihood of the fairer sex winning medals for sporting prowess!

And yet you refer to "the fairer sex" Doodle.

In Sisterhood, may we continue to share our differing views, and not simply flatten those who disagree.

Oh the irony!

Oh, I thought the idea was to role-play an 18th century vicar in my view-sharing activity. I was just starting to enjoy myself ?

Doodledog

Not speaking for PP here, but why not just invite the granddaughter in for a smear? I've never needed to have things like that explained to me. 'Dear Mrs Dog, You are invited to come for a mammogram as we believe you have breasts' would be equally ridiculous. Also, as I suspect you are aware, Heart Failure is a specific diagnosis that does not mean that a heart has stopped functioning, and rehabilitation is not just about addiction, but any post-operative recovery.

Thank you Mrs Dog (LOL!) for simplifying an issue that appears to have been the subject of 'overthinking'. "you are invited for a smear test of your cervix" should really be all that's necessary.
But I've been informed that there are those who don't know what a cervix is, or whether they indeed have one. How true that is, or how many individuals don't actually know what it is must be minute, surely? And if indeed you get a letter inviting you for a test on a part of your anatomy of which you are unfamiliar, surely you pick up the 'phone and ask - what is this test and why do I need it? And if the recipient has mental health problems or learning difficulties, they will probably have a guardian who can explain it to them - as probably happens already.

Making simple things more complicated in order to find the right wording for the sake of inclusivity and then making it more confusing, is just ridiculous. An invitation for a cervical smear test is open to anyone who's got one, surely?

Thank you so much Doodledog for responding so clearly and so effectively with all the flamdoodle that you quoted in your post at 21:52.

Dickens
An invitation for a cervical smear test is open to anyone who's got one, surely
Yes and for those who don’t know what one is, it’s a valid reason for asking Dr Google.

Flamdoodle.
That's a great word.

But I've been informed that there are those who don't know what a cervix is, or whether they indeed have one. How true that is, or how many individuals don't actually know what it is must be minute, surely

Well Keir Starmer doesn't know for a start! When Rosie Duffield dared to state the bleeding obvious she not only was trolled online for being transphobic but Starmer said that she "was wrong to say that only women have a cervix."

MissAdventure

Flamdoodle.
That's a great word.

Thank you MissAdventure. It came into my mind as I wrote, so I looked it up to make sure I was using it correctly before the posting police jumped on me.
Definition of flamdoodle
dialectal. : nonsense especially : pretentious nonsense

Used correctly then.

Mollygo

Thank you so much Doodledog for responding so clearly and so effectively with all the flamdoodle that you quoted in your post at 21:52.

Dickens
An invitation for a cervical smear test is open to anyone who's got one, surely
Yes and for those who don’t know what one is, it’s a valid reason for asking Dr Google.

Yes and for those who don’t know what one is, it’s a valid reason for asking Dr Google.

I've used Dr Google on many occasions when trying to interpret the terminology used on blood test request forms as GPs often don't have the time to explain what they are or why they are asking for a particular test. Either way, GP, Dr G, or the clinic sending the invite, can all be consulted. In fact the 'LGBT Foundation' has a page on this very subject and explains clearly what a cervix is, who's likely to have / not have one, and why, and also explains what a smear test is and why you need it.

Definition of flamdoodle
dialectal. : nonsense especially : pretentious nonsense

I can see that word being in constant use on these threads MollyGo. Shame we didn't know about it yesterday.

Mollygo

Thank you so much Doodledog for responding so clearly and so effectively with all the flamdoodle that you quoted in your post at 21:52.

Dickens
An invitation for a cervical smear test is open to anyone who's got one, surely
Yes and for those who don’t know what one is, it’s a valid reason for asking Dr Google.

The term cervix may not be understood by someone who does not speak/understand much English. There are probably more people than we think in this position and especially women. An acquaintance’s mother speaks no English even after more than 40 years in the UK.

My dd, working as a doctor in Yorkshire, has seen many patients who live in abject poverty and for whom internet access would be as likely as flying to the moon. My dd has witnessed a lot of poverty in her life after growing up in developing world countries but was very shocked to see such conditions in our wealthy country.

Both of these are reasons to make information on health care easier and more understandable, not confuse things with obscure language.

Flamdoodle is an excellent word. I hope I have a chance to deploy it very soon!

Both of these are reasons to make information on health care easier and more understandable, not confuse things with obscure language

For those living in abject poverty here in the UK - and I know it exists, I've seen it - or unable to speak English, and no access to the 'net, terminology such as that mentioned by the OP, is unlikely to make anything clearer to them, I would have thought.
What would be more helpful is a simple diagram with a simple explanation to accompany it. Which the NHS actually do for some tests anyway in their accompanying leaflets for certain procedures. I have no language problems and obviously have 'net access - but I also find them very useful because they are simplified and clear.

A letter saying that women need this test would be the best start at communicating with the greatest number of female people.

I doubt that you'll have long to wait SueDonim

Chewbacca

^But I've been informed that there are those who don't know what a cervix is, or whether they^ indeed have one. How true that is, or how many individuals don't actually know what it is must be minute, surely

Well Keir Starmer doesn't know for a start! When Rosie Duffield dared to state the bleeding obvious she not only was trolled online for being transphobic but Starmer said that she "was wrong to say that only women have a cervix."

... I'd forgotten that.

Perhaps he was thinking of the neo-cervix?

The cells of which are different and don't need a smear test according to the available information.

Well it's a bit of a stretch Dickens but I can see that you like to give the benefit of the doubt! Personally, I think that Starmer is either academically challenged in the biology department or he's terrified that the trans activists/trans allies will scream "transphobe" at him and he'll end up as vilified by trans activists/trans allies as JK Rowling.

When Andrew Marr asked him to expand on his unique slant on human biology, the reply was Well, Andrew, we need to have a mature, respectful debate about trans rights and we need to, I think, bear in mind that the trans community are amongst the most marginalised and abused communities.

When Marr asked; "Is saying only a woman has a cervix transphobic? Starmer compounded his ignorance by adding Well, it is something that shouldn’t be said. It is not right.

Debbie Hayton wrote an article for The Spectator on that interview that included this paragraph:

Shouldn’t be said? It's the truth, for heaven's sake! Only women have a cervix. Just like only men have a prostate. These facts are fundamental to human biology, but the leader of Her Majesty’s Opposition thinks we should keep quiet about it.

I might be trans but I am also a secondary school science teacher. If Starmer is genuinely clueless about human reproduction he needs to mug up before his next interview. BBC Bitesize for GCSE Biology has a good summary if he needs somewhere to start.

Chewbacca

Anything which furthers understanding is worth doing, Dickens. David Lammy - he who thinks a cervix can be created by ‘hormones and things’ - might benefit, too.

Perhaps he was thinking of the neo-cervix?

The cells of which are different and don't need a smear test according to the available information.


Of course they don't because they are not a cervix at all, just some male flesh rearranged.

The fact that these intelligent men, both at the top of their profession, feel that they have to make such craven fools of themselves rather than risk being treated like JKR shows just how far down the rabbit hole we have gone.

How do the ‘trans allies’ on this thread feel about this? I’m not interested in whether you support Labour policies or in your opinion of either man on a personal level; but in how you feel about the fact that the trans lobby has the power (despite claiming to be ‘marginalised and abused’) to create a situation in which people are intimidated into making such risible statements.

Its quite hard to be brave doodle. I often havent been brave. If you look at the 'arc' of JKR s contributions to this subject she wasnt brave at first (or possibly wasnt yet sure of her thoughts and wanted time to look at the facts) now she is like a lion.
If I was leader of the labour party I wouldnt make ridiculous statements as Starmer has done, but I would avoid the subject if it all possible. And as you know its very imporyant to me.

Almost everyone has missed the point here. The invitation needs to say WHY the person has been invited: to detect and prevent cancer. NHS bodies getting involved in gender politics by writing “assigned female at birth” on the invitation is DIRECTLY compromising that effort.

Could KS have been suggesting trans men have a cervix?
Genuine question.
It’s ludicrous that politicians in the LP are finding it so difficult to give a simple, straight forward response. I watched Yvette Cooper avoiding answering, referring to going down the rabbit hole on the subject. I like YC and on reflection maybe she was right to avoid being headline news and subject to abuse if her answer didn’t suit the transactivists

I agree, Galaxy. We are firmly in the world of Doublespeak, and of course I understand the reluctance of politicians to compromise their chances of success by refusing to play along with the ‘marginalised and abused minority’. I just wonder how the ‘allies’ feel about the situation.

argymargy (great username!) do you think it will stop people from accessing screening? I don’t think it would put me off going for tests I want to have, any more than I think that those ‘identifying’ as men suddenly forget they have a female body. It’s all a sop to the sensibilities of those who want what they can’t have, in my opinion. Who could seriously think that they could identify out of biological reality, unless they are so used to getting their own way that they think they control Nature?