Trans Teacher

nanna8

My 20 year old granddaughter refers to floral dresses as ‘nanna clothes’. I sometimes buy things for the young ones and none of them would be seen dead in florals at their age.

If one of the current 'trending' "fashionistas" or similar celebrity, popular with that age group, decided to hijack the floral pattern for a piece of clothing - they'd probably make it popular almost overnight.

There was a time when only the old and forlorn would be seen walking around in a long dress with ankle socks and plimsolls - now it's a cool look!

And whoever thought the Victorian urchin with his bum and knees hanging out of his ripped trousers would become a fashion 'icon'?

Maybe "florals" with the right spaghetti-straps and low-neckline could catch on with the 20-somethings?
i.pinimg.com/736x/31/78/6a/31786adf6a8275d0c1ad9c873c907ac0--floral-outfits-floral-dresses.jpg

The young 20s re-invent fashion all the time - and they raid grandma's and grandpa's wardrobe too - remember grandad shirts without collars?!
Even the kids are wearing them...
i.pinimg.com/736x/b8/3d/ed/b83dedf2d535515409dbf8da70aa7b47.jpg

No-one can change sex. No-one is born in the wrong body!

It’s a bit off the point of the OP I know, but florals and patterns are quite fashionable at the moment. It’s not really my thing, although I do have some items with pattern. On the whole I prefer plains. But Dickens is right, in the UK long, floral dresses worn alongside trainers or Doc Martins are fashionable among the young, and some of the not so young.
As for the discussion last night re piercings and tattoos, they seem to be pretty mainstream these days, although in days long gone, they were regarded as not quite nice for a woman, apart from the usual one piercing per ear. Thankfully those days are long gone.
However, whilst a young, female teacher in a long floral dress and Doc Martins would be unlikely to attract any comment these days, a male teacher wearing a skirt, however demure, would undoubtedly attract much comment from other staff, parents, and of course eight year old children. And that my friends, is the whole point! He wants to attract comment.

He wants to attract comment so everyone should treat it as completely uninteresting, provided his skirts are within staff guidelines.

So what when he attends school in his swimming shorts?

It always fascinates me how this topic always generates such massive response from this audience. I wonder why? However Gossamerbeynon1945 here is a brief, true example to challenge your statement. A long standing friend’s son was an immensely unhappy teenager, although in a loving family. In his late 20s he informed his family he was transitioning to a woman. They supported him through a lengthy, expensive and finally legal change. He/she is now a beautiful woman who has got a degree, married a caring man and is living a happy life. While her husband knows of the transition, no other people in their ‘new’ world do as it is not relevant. Having spent time with this person, both before and since their transition, my husband and I have learned a lot about the process and the benefits of this change. It has totally changed my understanding. It is great to see how this process has helped this person to a positive and constructive future.

You're missing the point of the thread, CvD66

But this thread is not about transitioning, it’s about a male teacher, who is not trans, wearing a skirt to school to teach his class of eight year olds!

Precisely!!

her teacher is a man, who identifies as a Mr, but who chooses to wear a skirt to work

Why? Is it in support of the girls who are not allowed to wear trousers to school? If so, well done him, that is what a lot of the boys did in a Welsh school last year!

I was wondering if a man wore something like this to school would that be wrong? Not all cultures designate a skirt women's wear

I expect they do Glorianny in some other cultures.
But we don’t try to emulate other cultures do we? After all, we don’t insist, by law, that women cover their hair, like in Iran do we? Nor do we, under threat of legal action, insist that all women wear an abaya, like in Soudi Arabia, do we? Nor do we refuse to allow, by law, girls to wear a hijab at school, like in France, do we?
When in Rome, and all that.

Glorianny

I was wondering if a man wore something like this to school would that be wrong? Not all cultures designate a skirt women's wear

I did post something similar up thread about seeing the dhoti worn by quite a few men at an Indian wedding I went to recently. Cultural attire is entirely appropriate and emanates from countries that have a hot climate. I don't think we should blur the lines between such items of clothing that pertain to certain cultures and men who cross dress.

maddyone

But this thread is not about transitioning, it’s about a male teacher, who is not trans, wearing a skirt to school to teach his class of eight year olds!

Yes, this is not about 'trans' issues, although I would feel differently about the skirt if not for the febrile atmosphere those issues have created - particularly where young children are concerned.

If the teacher is making a point (which I am certain he must be) then he is not setting a good example to the children, as part of his role is socialising them so that they learn to fit into their environment and obey the law.

I have a certain regard for boys making a protest in support of girls, as I do for the ones who wore skirts because they weren't allowed to wear shorts in hot weather. Kids organising a protest shows initiative and is in keeping with the UK's tolerance of peaceful protest, but a teacher doing similar is encouraging rebellion and a disregard for convention. In limited circumstances this may be laudable, but surely a Head Teacher can't approve of it as the right message to send? In a couple of years these children will be at secondary school, where it is often difficult enough to keep discipline.

This is not the same as women wearing trousers (or people in the dress of other cultures) and it is disingenuous to suggest that it is. Yes, female teachers were sometimes discouraged from wearing them decades ago, but that was unreasonable because they were very normal clothing for women at the time. Skirts for men are not, and wearing one is making a point in a way that a woman wearing trousers was not.

But there are men in every city in the UK now dressed like this. Are we going to tell them to change? It's also becoming incredibly hot, so it's probably cooler for men. Where do you draw the line? At the school gate?
The point is what is cross dressing? Is it wearing a skirt? many fashion designers have featured skirts for men in their collections, so men can wear them. Men wear them in other countries and cultures, men wear them here. It's completely unreasonable and unrue to claim they don't.

This is not the same as women wearing trousers (or people in the dress of other cultures) and it is disingenuous to suggest that it is. Yes, female teachers were sometimes discouraged from wearing them decades ago, but that was unreasonable because they were very normal clothing for women at the time

Sorry this is completely untrue. I had been wearing trousers since I was a child, had my first pair of jeans at 15. I had worn trousers in my previous school and wore them in the evening. They were accepted wear for women. One old and prejudiced headteacher banned her staff from wearing them. The culture of women wearing trousers goes back to Victorian times.
Men wear wearing skirts in the 60s..

Yes, I know. A friend of mine worked for a head who insisted that lipstick and nail varnish matched . Bonkers, but His have traditionally had this sort of power. But how long ago is it since trousers were considered unsuitable for women? Decades. We can't keep looking back and drawing parallels with today, as the cultural and political situations are so different. It makes no more sense than dragging in traditions from other continents in the hope of scoring a point.

The fact remains that a male teacher wearing a skirt is making a point, just as Harry Styles or David Beckham were, or any of the numerous celebrities who have done likewise. Sometimes the point is about their sexuality or 'gender' preferences, and sometimes it is more of a 'look at me' thing.

Yes, clothes are just clothes, but men dressing in traditionally female clothing has taken on different connotations over the last few years. Eddie Izzard used to insist that his dresses were not 'women's clothes' but just clothes. Fair enough - liberating even - but then he started wearing them and saying that doing so gave him the right to use the Ladies, which he did even when someone had to go in ahead of him and clear out the women in there, or when he shouted at teenage girls who were also using the lo designated for their sex. These things don't exist in a vacuum.

'Some People' have been saying on here since what feels like the dawn of time that 'gender' is a construct, and that dismantling that construct (which would include men wearing skirts) would be far better than telling children that they need to 'transition' because they are 'in the wrong body', but we have been roundly shouted down.

As predicted, 'gender' is now being used in a frightening power struggle, as can be seen in the last few pages of the 'what is a lesbian' thread, and more and more things are bing subsumed into that struggle. Women are systematically being erased. The WI has a man on its governing body. Support groups for female rape survivors, endometriosis sufferers and parents who have lost babies through stillbirth or miscarriage have been infiltrated by men, in some cases rendering them unviable. When one group disbanded and tried to reform in someone's house the men stood in the drive and called the police to enforce their entry! It's dystopian.

A teacher wearing a skirt has to be seen in that context - it is not an isolated act, and whether the teacher meant it to be or not it is part of a much wider phenomenon.

Doodledog

Yes, I know. A friend of mine worked for a head who insisted that lipstick and nail varnish matched . Bonkers, but His have traditionally had this sort of power. But how long ago is it since trousers were considered unsuitable for women? Decades. We can't keep looking back and drawing parallels with today, as the cultural and political situations are so different. It makes no more sense than dragging in traditions from other continents in the hope of scoring a point.

The fact remains that a male teacher wearing a skirt is making a point, just as Harry Styles or David Beckham were, or any of the numerous celebrities who have done likewise. Sometimes the point is about their sexuality or 'gender' preferences, and sometimes it is more of a 'look at me' thing.

Yes, clothes are just clothes, but men dressing in traditionally female clothing has taken on different connotations over the last few years. Eddie Izzard used to insist that his dresses were not 'women's clothes' but just clothes. Fair enough - liberating even - but then he started wearing them and saying that doing so gave him the right to use the Ladies, which he did even when someone had to go in ahead of him and clear out the women in there, or when he shouted at teenage girls who were also using the lo designated for their sex. These things don't exist in a vacuum.

'Some People' have been saying on here since what feels like the dawn of time that 'gender' is a construct, and that dismantling that construct (which would include men wearing skirts) would be far better than telling children that they need to 'transition' because they are 'in the wrong body', but we have been roundly shouted down.

As predicted, 'gender' is now being used in a frightening power struggle, as can be seen in the last few pages of the 'what is a lesbian' thread, and more and more things are bing subsumed into that struggle. Women are systematically being erased. The WI has a man on its governing body. Support groups for female rape survivors, endometriosis sufferers and parents who have lost babies through stillbirth or miscarriage have been infiltrated by men, in some cases rendering them unviable. When one group disbanded and tried to reform in someone's house the men stood in the drive and called the police to enforce their entry! It's dystopian.

A teacher wearing a skirt has to be seen in that context - it is not an isolated act, and whether the teacher meant it to be or not it is part of a much wider phenomenon.

Not a mention of cultures with different dress, not a mention of fashion designers or of the 60's. The point is that gender norms are only changed by people who wear something different.
There were when I first brought my first pair of jeans established "women's trousers" which had a zip on the side and "men's trousers" which had a fly front. I can still remember my mum's shock when I wore my first pair of front fastening trousers. "But they are men's!" she insisted. Apparently in the 30's and 40's you could be arrested for wearing clothing which was designated as the other gender's. Women have overcome that. I doubt you'd find a pair of side fastening trousers anywhere, for goodness sake let's make men gender free too.

Excellent post Doodledog. Well said.

I doubt you'd find a pair of side fastening trousers anywhere

Widely available with an invisible zip, especially in more 'dressy' women's trousers as it gives a smoother line.

I still have a pair (just M&S) but find them rather awkward to do up now as I'm not as agile as I was.

Not a mention of cultures with different dress, not a mention of fashion designers or of the 60's. The point is that gender norms are only changed by people who wear something different.
Eh?
There were when I first brought my first pair of jeans established "women's trousers" which had a zip on the side and "men's trousers" which had a fly front. I can still remember my mum's shock when I wore my first pair of front fastening trousers. "But they are men's!" she insisted. Apparently in the 30's and 40's you could be arrested for wearing clothing which was designated as the other gender's. Women have overcome that. I doubt you'd find a pair of side fastening trousers anywhere, for goodness sake let's make men gender free too.
I have had side-fastening trousers in recent years. They are harder to fasten but much more flattering than centre fastening ones, as there is no bulky zip in the stomach area. I still don't know what the 1930s and 40s have to do with the issue of a man wearing as skirt in 2023 though has to do with anything on this thread though.

You are totally (conveniently) ignoring the modern-day context, of course. I repeat for the umpteenth time - had this happened outwith the atmosphere in which children are taught about 100 'genders', and that they can be in 'the wrong body', where they are read stories by drag queens in full drag I would probably feel differently. In the context of the 21st century this is about more than a skirt, and I think you know that.

I would ask the OP’s friend/ mother of the child to ask to see the Headteacher in the first instance and try and establish for certain that this male teacher is not embarking on gradual transition to female. It doesn’t sound like it but I would want to be sure as if this is the case, there is very little the Head, parents or governors can do as sexual orientation is a protected characteristic.
They would then expect to have an idea of the timeline and how this is going to be dealt with for the children and school. The LEA lead with this.

If he is not transitioning,as looks to be the case, I would ask to see school’s code of dress , which would normally state something along the lines of ‘ suitable business attire’ or ‘ smart daywear’ . It’s worth noting that expectations are relaxed, rightly or wrongly, in Infant and Early Primary, compared with Secondary but nevertheless will have been agreed by Governors and Teachers at their appointment.

The Head and Governors should be able to step in if they wish to nip this in the bud which in my personal view is exactly why they are in Post.

Snap, Callistemon. On both the awkward fastening and the smoother line!

Doodledog

Snap, Callistemon. On both the awkward fastening and the smoother line!

I have a couple of pairs but it's best if you have someone else available to zip you up!

CvD66

"It always fascinates me how this topic always generates such massive response from this audience"...

Including a response from you - as you also want your voice to be heard.

..."I wonder why?"

Well, it could be because societal mores are changing - and bringing in new legislation - at quite a fast pace; and we are all affected by it to some degree or other... all of us, including the transgender community.

I don't know why you are seemingly amazed that the topic garners huge interest. We are an audience with younger family members some of whom are gay / bi / transgender. We also have school age grandchildren. Why would this topic not be of interest to grandmothers.

Brexit also garnered considerable interest - because we were all affected, or potentially affected.

I'm only responding to your post because there's an implied criticism in your comment - that we are, somehow, showing an interest in a matter that shouldn't concern us.

Callistemon21

^I doubt you'd find a pair of side fastening trousers anywhere^

Widely available with an invisible zip, especially in more 'dressy' women's trousers as it gives a smoother line.

I still have a pair (just M&S) but find them rather awkward to do up now as I'm not as agile as I was.

Could you link to the M&S version please. I've "Googled" it and "side fastening" only came up with "comfortable waisted "(elasticated) or "side adjusting" which have buckles either side of the waist but still fasten at the front.
Even very expensive ones were front fastening.
But as they say "It's the exception that proves the rule"