Vegans?

To be called lamb they have to be under a year old.

By the way, the farmer doesn't have his sheep for wool. They are specially bred to lose their wool naturally so no shearing needed. Obviously just for the meat. So they never look like Chris. You see them walking around with big lumps of wool hanging off them at certain times of the year. Unfortunately it doesn't coincide with nesting.

A well-reasoned argument why being vegan or vegetarian is not morally superior. Essentially it boils down to this: all food production kills life. The writer quotes Joel Salatin: “ ...By what stretch of arrogance do you think a life form that looks like you is more important than a life form that doesn’t?”

It is a brilliant piece of writing.

Some of us have argued before on GN about improving farming methods and expressed support for Compassion in World Farming. If animals raised for food are well treated, killing them humanely in due course is not wrong. It's actually less wrong than mass production of soy beans.

Do check out that article. You might learn something. Its previously vegetarian author did when she did some in depth research.

Durham as i said in an earlier post i wouldnt expect anyone else to go out and buy dairy free for him. Yes we do take our own even in this day and age.

PS Just to be clear, the author is mot anti-vegetarian, and neither am I. The argument is that being vegetarian or vegan is a lifestyle choice, not a moral one, and many omnivores are tired of being spoken to as if they were making immoral food choices so they are arguing back, with logic on their side.

Excellent read.

Just had an email from Avaaz, about stopping abattoir workers from treating animals inhumanely.

"Brave activists installed secret cameras in slaughterhouses and filmed animals being hacked, dismembered and decapitated all while alive and conscious!

Scientists have proved that many animals have the same emotions and awareness as toddlers. It's time to stop torturing them in this sickening way.

Thankfully, the secret footage forced governments in France and Israel to require 24 hour slaughter surveillance -- and we can take this genius strategy global. If each of us chips in now, Avaaz'll buy the cameras, fund undercover journalists to get footage, and then run massive exposé campaigns in the media to force governments to make this violence illegal and protect animals everywhere."

I already donate to Viva! to do equal footage in this country. Do have a look if you think animals are treated morally in abattoirs in this country.
Look particularly at the FaceOff footage. Then you'll see why some of us think it's a moral as well as a lifestyle choice.

It's not a brilliant piece of writing. It's just a justification for changing her lifestyle.
We all have to eat to live.
I presume those of you who think it's brilliant also grow your own food, kill your own animals, and do no harm to any other animal that you do not eat?
Most soya is grown for animal feed for those animals that are killed in abattoirs. That's why South America is deforested.
My organic tofu comes from Japan, and being organic, pesticides are not used to kill lots of other animals.
I hope those who think it's a good article have also stopped using pesticides and herbicides and only eat organic foods.
You are in a minority if you have/ do.

Thanks bags. I have a couple of friends who embraced a vegan lifestyle and then began lecturing, one of them in an aggressive manner, the friends who continue to eat meat. Doing the best we can to ensure animals are free range and well cared for just isn't enough. I was accused of hipocracy because I volunteer for an animal charity. I appreciate the feelings leading to veganism but a bit of compassion for other humans wouldn't go amiss from some who do see themselves as superior, more moral humans

Don't see ourselves as superior, but definitely more moral than those who take enjoyment out of torturing animals before they kill them to eat.

Of course, but you are not more moral than certain native tribesmen who apologise to the spirit totem of an animal before they kill it (quickly and efficiently) for food.

Only degenerate morons take enjoyment out of torturing animals, and the proportion of those in the meat industry is probably far lower than is inferred by the vegetarian/vegan authors you quote, who have a drum to thump at least as big and noisy as the one that thatbags linked to.

When a cruel parent is reported to have killed a child, it would not be logical to assume that all parents are murderers. Equally, not all farmers neglect and harm their flocks and herds, and not all abbatoir workers are sadists.

Didn't say that, Elegran.

For those who use free-range eggs.

www.google.com/url?q=http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2017/02/24/free-range-egg-crisis-prevented-government-finally-agrees-let/&sa=U&ved=0ahUKEwi3is-P7oXTAhUJApoKHSKyC9IQFggFMAA&client=internal-uds-cse&usg=AFQjCNHt1xiy7O6wLaAEy2e94SCcTcEZlA

Just in case you didn't know..

www.ciwf.org.uk/philip-lymbery/blog/2016/07/breaking-free-the-future-of-food-and-farming

Most people eat factory farmed meat. Over half of EU grain is fed to animals to feed humans. One of the good things about leaving the EU is that animal feed costs will rise, and the cost of meat will do, too. That means that most people will eat less.
Good.

I've worked with a vegan for several years now and we've discussed the subject many times. He's explained why he became vegetarian, and then vegan, and what led him to make that choice. He's never, ever, passed comment or judgement on what others eat, either from a moral or ethical standpoint, maintaining that it's for the individual to choose. I eat meat, free range if I can afford to buy it from our village butcher but supermarket if not. I eat eggs too, again from stalls at the side of the road, by farm gates. But I'm lucky, I live in the countryside and can access locally bred and slaughtered meat very easily, for which local farmers are grateful of the support. Millions of people live in towns and cities and either can't afford to, or don't have access to, free range meat and eggs.
I make no apology to anyone for what I eat. I don't believe that non meat eaters, either vegetarian or vegan, are morally or ethically superior. They just made a different choice. So what?

Each to their own.

I agree that vigilance is vital to ensure that animals are kept in good conditions and slaughtered humanely and admit to being shocked to see the kind of conditions that M&S were keeping their calves in as I thought they, at least, would ensure ethical treatment of the animals on the farms that produce their products.

However, people are not going to stop eating meat and, whilst it is possible to buy meat, eggs, milk from a known source, organically produced, grass fed etc, it is not always possible for people who are struggling to feed a family.

Exactly Jalima

Get fed up with this 'moral' thing that some vegetarians and vegans assume like a mantle of sainthood.
It's a food choice.

It really does work both ways. I never understand why non-vegetarians and non-vegans often seem so hostile to vegetarians and vegans. Or why they often seem to go out of their way to attack and rubbish those individuals' choices. And whether you agree or not, it is a choice based on moral and ethical beliefs for many people. That doesn't mean they are setting themselves up as morally superior, just that the decisions they make are based on their own moral code.

Question - "How do you know if someone is a vegan?"

Answer - "Don't worry, they'll tell you!"

Mankind has been eating meat for at least 2.5 million years. We know this because we have the tools used and bones showing marks of butchering. We are the only animals who use tools.
Meat is nutrient dense compared to a vegetable only diet and the human race made huge strides in physical development including massive increase in brain size once meat was included. This led to all the developments which separate us from the other animals such as speech and the development of civilisation.

I respect anyone's right to choose whether they wish to eat meat or not, in return I expect my wish to have a natural diet including plant and animal products similarly respected.

I've never personally known anyone be hostile towards a vegetarian or vegan Nightowl and I can't understand why anyone would want to attack or rubbish them for simply choosing something different to me. Everyone has the right to choose how to live their life, in their own way - respect for all choices. My DS and DIL are both vegetarians (although DS grew up within a meat eating family) and I just amend whatever meal I'm preparing for them when they're coming to eat with us. But they never make a big deal out of it when they go to eat at friends homes either. Live and let live.

Mankind has been eating vegetables for longer Esspee. We know this because of food residues found in graves.
What do you think they ate before they used tools to hunt and catch animals?
How much natural raw meat do you eat?

I asked at the beginning, but never got an answer.
Why did you start this thread, phoenix?
It didn't come out of fresh air.