Niqab/burqa ban in Netherlands

the lovely girl who yesterday won a horse race at Newbury and she was wearing a hijab , good on her

I was pleased for her too, in breaking barriers, but as had been mentioned, she would have been a) wearing a riding helmet on her head and b) riding breeches, so would have had her arse bobbing about in the air as she raced her horse against others. I hope she didn't inflame male passion....

What is the bloody point? We are praising a muslim woman rider, and rightly so, but why is it also about a deviation in dress code?

The shame is that women living in Western countries ( actually, make that any countries) are being required by men to cover their faces in public.
Think about it, here we are, free human beings and some of us have to cover up so that nobody can see us! Can you imagine men doing the same?

I absolutely abhor seeing females covered, particularly head to toe, but not my business, not my problem, thankfully.

Whole heartedly agree Day6 , excellent post !

Hear hear Day6.

Good post Day6! Agree entirely.

Ahem. I live in a northern former mill town. In the 1950's we invited people from Pakistan to work in our cotton mills because locals no longer wanted this work, there were better alternatives available.
We now have a fairly large population of people, descendants or relatives of those early settlers. Thirty years ago, it was rare to see any of the Pakistani Muslim heritage people wearing traditional clothes. These days, its very common, especially around religious holidays when the men wear flowing robes. We have a growing population of women who choose to wear the long black gowns, including head and face covering. I haven't researched this but it followed the anti Muslim feelings after 9/11 and other terrorism. My feeling is its political, it's a statement of solidarity with faith and belief systems. It's also in opposition to the growing number of young white British people who strip off to tiny shorts and tops (girls) and no tops, boys at any sign of warm weather.
We still manage to live in harmony. We shop in each others specialised shops, where people can be heard chatting, especially about children. "oh isn't your baby lovely, how old?" I've never seen any burka dressed woman respond with anything other than friendliness to that kind of comment.

I can't say I'm a fan of the burka. I've spent all my adult life working for equality, against the oppression of women. It's obvious that in some cultures women face more oppression than in others. I can't agree though, that every woman who chooses to cover is doing so because they're frightened of the men in their family. Some, yes but not all. I don't like to see small girls covering their hair either. But, I don't like to see small girls being given pole dancing parties as occasionally happens in the white British population.

Some absolute rubbish here, as usual.

The old bikers helmet trope and now we have bee keepers .

A huge assumption that women who are wearing burqas are subjugated and cowering.

Do any you of you live in mixed communities...and mix with women who choose to wear the burqa? Have you ever bothered to have a conversation with women about their thoughts on this?

I suppose it's quicker and easier and in some ways pleasing to trot out the junk you have read than actually think about it or meet people.

As a previous poster mentioned.....the red light district in Amsterdam would make me feel more than uncomfortable.

Iam64 well said

I totally agree with Day6 and Lemongrove. I think it represents male domination and control of women, and remember , not all Muslim women wear them. It depends on the form of Islam that is prevalent in the region they come from.

It isn’t being enforced because the police feel so uncomfortable doing so.

" I think".....I think , it's good to have an open mind. Visit a mosque, it's very interesting.

Just the other day, a young lady in full burqua and hijab was shouting obscenities at a Pride march that was going through the streets.

So here is the quandary. Two minority groups. Both, rightly, with laws in place to protect them from animosity.

So the lady has her religion which is totally opposed to that alternative lifestyle which is fine with most people. The Pride marchers should not be insulted, they too have rights.

So which 'rights' win? Also nobody would ever be able to identify this woman due to her clothing.

I think it's a shame to see the full body/facial covering. Especially in this hot weather! I also appreciate that there are women who do this of their own accord. I also know that many dress this way, basically to please the men. So we support their religion/choice of clothing but by doing so we act as enablers to those who force the clothing. It's an almost impossible situation

Anyone remember Iranian women pre Islamic Revolution? They were all in western clothing leading their lives. That all changed and photos that are available online show the difference between how they were and how they are now. The women protested but weren't listened to.

BBC News has an excellent article online about it.

So we can bend over backwards being inclusive but maybe sometimes we're enabling something that these women don't actually want.

I'm not sure why the woman in the hospital would have been terrified though. It's their way of life. And don't husbands usually attend maternity appointments?

Day6
I think the lady I saw would have been grateful for a 'slit' to see through or even breath through, it was a very hot day.
She was wearing the Burqa- Chardari. All she had to see/ breath through was a small area of mesh.

So which 'rights' win? Also nobody would ever be able to identify this woman due to her clothing.

A woman was arrested and taken into custody. If she's charged and found guilty she deserves whatever the law allows - whatever she's wearing doesn't give her any more rights than another person.

So both rights win - her right to wear whatever she likes and a gay person's rights to be free from harassment.

If I wish to wear a big fur jacket in the middle of winter then that's my business, my body to keep warm and nothing whatsoever to do with anyone else. We wear what we like, we are free to do so.
People should mind their own business !! The same goes for Middle Eastern women. Just take no notice.

Both burqa's and animal fur seem to be bones of contention ?
Let it go and leave well alone. That's how I feel. I've travelled on planes with people in full garb, hasn't anyone else ?

Sorry Gonegirl, it wasn’t meant to be patronising. I have met one of my hijab wearing friends in tea shops (lol) and have even met her once with her brother, sister in law, cousin and a gaggle of children so I found the original post rather odd.
It made me wonder if the OP was in the Netherlands.

I was really thinking about how nice to see that all sorts of people enjoy our countryside together. It speaks of integration and shared values to me. I am well aware that Muslims like to walk as much as everyone else!

I personally felt the idea that the three women were the wives of the man (by the original poster) was more than a bit off.
I heard something like this a few years ago whilst waiting in line at customs on the Canada/US border. A customs officer assumed the family travelling together was a man with three wives and two children. It was a man, his wife and children plus his two nieces (his brothers daughters). I knew this as I’d been chatting to them. I was shocked and embarrassed to hear them spoken to so disrespectfully. The poor man was mortified at the assumption.

P.S I do realise the OP was about the Burka.

It has been banned here for a few years now, there was a bit of fuss at the beginning but just normal now. Everyone carries an I.D.card here and in a lot of other European countries and if you are asked to show it to anyone, banks, hospitals even buying your bus pass, then you must show your face to ensure it is your card.
Not possible when fully covered.

And well said Iam64

I know what you mean *NotSpaghetti., and I know that you weren't being patronising. Apologies back.

I think the man with the party was probably just the obligatory male attendee. Perhaps the driver.

Lessismore As a previous poster mentioned.....the red light district in Amsterdam would make me feel more than uncomfortable

It didn't me. It was great fun!

I must say that this idea of women being forced to wear a burka is on the whole ridiculous !
In many muslim countries it is the accepted way of dress and the women don't really expect that once they marry, that they will dress any other way outside the home and are quite happy to dress in that style. To them, it shows respect for their elders, their husband and their beliefs and to tar all of them as terrorists is really daft!
It is a bit strange to see them the first time, I suppose but the assumption that because a man goes into an appointment with a woman means that he is controlling her is so wrong - many women take their male partners in with them, it's quite normal!

Good sensible post day 6..
My sister who lives and works in a multi culture area and who doesn't have a racist bone in her body saw a person dressed in niqab hijab on the tube (around time of last attacks). There was just something about this person and she discreetly studied them coming to the conclusion that it was a man (not over tall but having large feet and well just giving the impression of being male)! She felt uncomfortable and actually a little scared so much so that she got off at an earlier stop. Afterwards she questioned her actions and came to the conclusion that you have to trust your gut and do what instinctively feels safe.
In general i don't have an issue with niqab believing that freedom to choose your own customs and forms of dress is down to the individual BUT i too think there are situations where i would be unconfortable. For example i freely admit that i wouldn't want my doctor to wear one as i want that open face to face interaction.
It's a difficult one this with no obvious rights or wrongs!!