People who menstruate

It sounds as though she'll be in the same danger as cis women are being placed in, when men are in their safe spaces. So who's safety is the more paramount?

Chewbacca

^Most people really just want to be who they are and live their lives accepted.^

And of course they can. Provided that they don't expect everyone else to make exceptional allowances for their own particular problems or life choices.

Trans identity is not a life choice.

But why would that be trisher, you have been telling us that sex offenders etc are safely segregated in prisons so why would this 22 year old be any more at risk in a mans prison. After all there are many violent women apparently.

Trans identity is not a life choice.

Neither is being a vulnerable woman who is expected to share their safe space with a man.

MrsWarren

Yes, trans is not a choice, sexuality is not a choice anymore than biologically assigned hair colour or eye colour is a choice. Yet changing how we look on the outside to how we feel on the inside is widely accepted unless a trans person is doing it. Despite evidence that their brain function and appearance matches who they feel on the inside.

No one cares how people present, we are arguing that saying how you present makes you male or female is deeply deeply sexist.

Galaxy in your opinion

Its is deeply misogynistic to use the term dresses as a woman or lives like a woman, imagine using these phrases about any other group.

You see how regressive this is, I am now having to argue that what you wear is nothing to do with being a woman.

There was a post on this thread about how a trans woman should be fulfilling gender roles as the woman of the house or they could not in fact be a woman.

That was mysogyny so I waited to see if it would be challenged.... It wasn't.

Why?

That was mysogyny so I waited to see if it would be challenged.... It wasn't

You're wrong I'm afraid Starblaze. Galaxy challenged that comment @ 00.29. Go back and have a look.

Chewbacca

^Trans identity is not a life choice.^

Neither is being a vulnerable woman who is expected to share their safe space with a man.

So, do you believe it to be a choice or not? Because you implied that you did.

And by “share their safe space with a man”, do you mean trans woman?

You can have concerns about shared spaces without showing such disregard towards trans people.

I cant even remember that to be honest, I think that was someone being sarcastic wasnt it. Talking about how clothes etc are seen as living like a woman but doing all the grunt work wasnt. That doesnt answer my question about the misogyny in the phrase lives or dresses like a woman
Yesterday myself and my husband watched some football matches, we pottered about the house and we both wore jeans. Which one of us was living or dressing as a woman.

I think people who use those phrases are doing a massive disservice to both women and transwomen.

Starblaze

MrsWarren

Yes, trans is not a choice, sexuality is not a choice anymore than biologically assigned hair colour or eye colour is a choice. Yet changing how we look on the outside to how we feel on the inside is widely accepted unless a trans person is doing it. Despite evidence that their brain function and appearance matches who they feel on the inside.

Much of the language used in these types of threads is reminiscent of old school homophobia.

Yet changing how we look on the outside to how we feel on the inside

What does that even mean? I could put on a boiler suit, carry a bag of tools and say that I dress like a plumber and I feel like a plumber, therefore I'm a plumber! Ridiculous argument!

The only misogyny that I've seen on this thread so far, has been those who have denied that spaces for women, such as toilets, refuges and changing rooms, should be kept exclusively for women. Not for a biological man who feels like he's a woman.

I think cases have to be looked at on an individual basis, the hypothetical one you described Trisher, I'd say a woman's prison would be the safest place.

Problems arise when lines get blurred, particularly with an evolving dilemma. Surely some common sense should prevail though, any individual who has been a previous sex offender against women, such as Karen White, an entitled Karen if ever there was one should not be placed in a women's prison. The rights of vulnerable women, such as those in refuges who have suffered at the hands of men already should be paramount over those of any biological man wishing to identify as a woman. I did read about an incidence of abuse in a refuge in Canada carried out by an "opportunistic" transwoman, and whilst it may be rare, one case is one too many. Why should any woman who is already scarred from previous abuse have her safety compromised in what should be a safe sanctuary. What most women fear is the occasional "opportunist" among the transwomen population per se, particularly when accessing female only spaces and whilst I imagine it's not unknown that a small proportion of women could be predatory, I've yet to hear of say a young girl being assaulted by some random woman in female toilets, I have however heard of girls being followed in and being assaulted by a male and similarly boys being assaulted by males in the men's toilets. Women are naturally cautious about "biological men" who identify as women sharing spaces where they would feel exposed. Someone posted up thread the number of assaults that have taken place in changing rooms at swimming pools, that are accessible to both sexes. It's very striking how the problems all seem to stem only one way, men transitioning to women rather than women to men and in those cases one can't help concluding, whilst not wishing to slur all men, aggression and entitlement is more likely to be a masculine characteristic

Am I alone in hating the unnecessary prefix "cis" A while ago, a friend of mine had to fill out some sort of form at her place of work which had a tick box section as to what sex the participants described themselves as, "cis woman" was one option, friend said she had no idea whether she was one or not, because didn't know what it meant. Neither I imagine do most of the population.

Flowershop

*Transwomen have been in the spaces you define as women's spaces for years and years, you just didn't know they were there*
We know. we've always known, but politeness and female socialisation has prevented us from speaking out.That's now ended.
You go on to mention Jan Morris living as a woman, how exactly did he do this?
Did he take full responsibility for his children. did he do all the housework? Did he take time off work when his children were unwell? Did he stay at home while his wife worked and socialised with friends? . Did he do the school run every day? , did he attend every parents evening? Did he cook all meals for the family? Did his natal wife support the household on her earnings?
Or did he wear women's clothing every day? Living as a woman is more than putting on female clothes.
No male person can live as a woman. Just as no female person can live as a man.
Human beings cannot change sex. Ever.

Whether you are trans inclusionary or trans exclusionary this is the exact opposite of feminism.

There are no gender roles in this house. Just who is available to do any task as and when it needs doing while catering to individual strengths and weaknesses.

Iam64 posted earlier today and said

Any question, no matter how genuine and serious is dismissed as transphobic.

And she was right wasn't she?

There are no gender roles in this house.

Bravo! Now what about in the wider community, where there are serious issues of women's rights to safety?

I know this is not central to the main discussion but She is waiting for surgery but she has a drug problem and she is arrested and charged with using and dealing
Sorry Trisher but I’m afraid drug dealers who ruin many other people’s lives are one group of society who have crossed the sympathy line as far as I’m concerned.
Struggling with gender identity yes.
Kicked out by their parents yes
Homeless yes
Drug dealing no.

That's lovely starblaze but it's not the case for many women we are asking what living like a woman is ? is it as it is for many women doing the majority of the household tasks and childcare, acknowledging that this happens and trying to solve that problem is absolutely feminism. We are asking what living like a woman means we are not the ones using that terms.

I think a very serious question is, do I let people in to my feminist idealogy through their agreement with me on one matter...

Because the answer is no. It is important to educate them and strengthen feminism as a whole.

As it is important to educate others on what discrimination is and ways we can achieve comfortable situations for everyone without actively discriminating.

That is rarely accomplished by calling people bigoted or transphobic but people do need to understand that people who have been marginalised and discriminated against can and will do that.

Even though I personally don't believe it particularly helps the cause.

Caitlyn Jenner when asked what the most difficult aspect of being female was, "oh deciding what to wear" Really!!! but then I suppose she was and still is one one of the Kardashian tribe.

I would say do I let people into my feminist ideology who use the phrases dresses or lives like a woman or do they need educating on discrimination. Except I wouldn't say any of that because the concept of letting people into feminism is completely alien to me. Feminism is for women, whether they agree with me or not.