People who menstruate

Galaxy

Those non binary people are women trisher. To tell them otherwise is going to lead to terrible issues with regard to health. Not using the word women excludes many many women from health care etc but nobody seems to mind about them.

It seems rather odd to me that people who insist transwomen should not be permitted to call themselves women, also insist that people who choose to call themselves non-binary must call themselves women. Isn't that restricting choices for women? Isn't that restricting women's freedoms? Isn't that forcing women into roles they have chosen to reject? Isn't it in fact doing what the patriachy has always done, and what some who call themselves feminists are now doing, ignoring minorities, seperating people into groups to try and restrict them and remove their liberties, because that has always been the way to control them.

Trisher they can call themselves what they like but they cant force other people to believe it. Isnt forcing people to believe something restricting peoples freedoms.

And if language is so unimportant and people are to be allowed to call themselves what they prefer then you need to grant women the same courtesy.

Galaxy would you describe yourself as transphobic or trans exclusionary?

Would you describe yourself as sexist or a misogynist starblaze. You see we can all play that game but it doesnt help.

Well no I wouldn't but others might.

That's actually fine I can accept that some might see me as mysoginist and sexist.

Of course that means that people must accept that others believe them transphobic and bigoted.

If that becomes people within a friendship circle or family, they must also accept the right to that belief and the changing of their feelings towards the person of that opinion.

I guess I am fortunate that people I cherish in my circles are generally of the same view as me.

That's just how belief/opinion works... Often sadly despite facts and feelings.

Sorry I dont really understand what you are saying starblaze. Or what reference your familys beliefs have to me.

OK Galaxy

Having a menstrual flow isn't about belief/opinions though is it? It's about a biological fact. If a person menstruates, they are biologically a female/woman. It is also a biological fact that whilst not all women menstruate, all people who do menstruate are female /women. Or do you dispute scientific and biological fact Starblaze?

Galaxy you can call yourself whatever you wish. Woman, womxn, wimmin or wymin. I certainly wouldn't stop you. As far as I know nor will anyone else. What you can't expect is everyone to behave or act as you demand, and accepting others beliefs and opinions is what a free society is all about. So you are free to believe anything you wish but when those beliefs conflict with other peoples' you should show respect for theirs. There is absolutely nothing feminist about dictating to others. I don't believe in god but I don't go around demanding everyone who does, stops doing it.

But some people who menstruate don't want to be called women Chewbacca. Don't they matter?

Interesting and educational from a scientific standpoint

health.clevelandclinic.org/research-on-the-transgender-brain-what-you-should-know/

@starblaze
Flowershop so would you say you are transphobic or trans exclusionary
I'm neither.
I believe in biology, I don't believe that Human beings are able to change sex. It's not biologically possible.
Transphobic and trans exclusionary are made up ridiculous buzzwords. They have no meaning to me at all.

I am not dictating language trisher. I am not making any demands trisher. It is not me who is demanding that the word woman isnt used. I absolutely agree with you that you cant impose peoples beliefs on others, I am not demanding anything from transgender people, wear what you want, present how you want, but you cant force me to believe that you have changed sex. Women are the ones who are being made demands upon, we are being told that men are allowed in womens spaces because of a feeling, this is a conflict of beliefs, it is like asking an atheist to believe in god just to be kind. The demands are coming only one way.

@starblaze
I'd also like to point out that I'm not the one name calling and insulting other people's beliefs.

You should read the article Flowershop just in case you may be actually wrong in your belief... Because a closed mind benefits no one, least of all you sadly

Male and female brains not at all regressive. There are numerous studies disputing the idea of a male or female brain.
We dont divide services by gender starblaze we divide them by sex.

Flowershop please quote me where and when as calling anyone anything or insulting them. I don't think I have because I am being careful not to but if I have I will apologise.

Have you listened to Fionne orlander, debbie Hayton, and buck angel on this subject starblaze, all vocal transwomen and transmen, who would agree with me on this subject, because a closed mind helps no one .

They can call themselves whatever they like trisher, I really don't care. What I do care about is that in society's endeavours to be seen as "woke" and "inclusive", it is women who stand the most to lose. Omitting the word women from feminine products is a small thing but it is not mirrored by omitting the word men from male products. "Just for Men" for example should become "just for people who produce sperm". Have you noticed how men's products haven't been changed?

If dehumanising language can be used for women, then the same is true of men. I have no issue with women who want to be men or vice versa; but I do have issue with the rest of us having to accommodate their choice by having a part of our identity air brushed out. To deny that this is a backward step for feminism is either misogynistic or sexist. Or both.

Because a closed mind benefits no one, least of all you sadly

An unnecessary comment Starblaze.

You called me transphobic or trans exclusionary starblaze, it didnt upset me because I know I am not and it's better than being told to die in a fire which is the usual response.

Can I just say that I have absolute respect for trisher in this debate, we have had numerous debates about this and I think for different reasons it is very important to us both, but she never ever calls people names, and always argues fairly, I will revert to being stroppy now

No I did not call anyone anything I asked a question.

I'm quite respectful of others beliefs really and have said several times I understand how people feel.

I simply want the same in return.

I only ask that my beliefs/views be equally valid and explain that others may view things differently.

If my thoughts aren't wanted, it would be easy to just stop challenging them directly

I'm calm, some others reading this thread may be upset by it though and that matters

Yes, I agree with that; trisher has debated without descending into insults, as have most people in this discussion.