People who menstruate

Chewbacca you are entirely entitled to think that. What you are not entitled to do is to insist that only women menstruate when some of those who menstruate choose not to be called women. Of course you can make your arguments to them. Of course you can tell them they are wrong but if they choose not to believe you, you cannot make them call themselves anything.
You may even be right about the word woman although I'm not sure calling a product for people can be seen as dehumanising it. It is in any case a very recent change and who knows what else may follow.
All of this anger, all of this confrontation has been caused by a few outspoken transgender people who are possibly not typical of the whole community. The response from some claiming to be feminists has been anger and antagonism which has only served to inflame matters. Inclusivity, the protection of the weakest, the ability to negotiate and embrace others have always been part of the feminism I believe in. Patriachies survive through division and conflict.
The trans community has been around for a long time. It has not committed the crimes some insist will happen. It has not undermined or eroded women's rights. I wish those who are so vocal about this would attach themselves to some of the very real injustices currently being inflicted upon women and stop imagining how transwomen will behave. Most of them are victims and not the enemy.

It has eroded womens rights though, the right to self determination, the right to single sex spaces, women are loosing spaces on scholarships, men are taking spaces on boards etc that have been specifically set aside for women, and to be fair all the women I know who are vocal on this subject are also very vocal on subjects such as abortion, prostitution, male violence etc etc.

Also I and many others are fighting desperately for the rights of transmen.

All of this anger, all of this confrontation has been caused by a few outspoken transgender people who are possibly not typical of the whole community

I totally agree with you on this trisher and I do believe that it is the strident demands of "the few" that has caused such a backlash.

Starblaze

Flowershop please quote me where and when as calling anyone anything or insulting them. I don't think I have because I am being careful not to but if I have I will apologise.

@Starblaze
Asking me if I would call myself transphobic or trans exclusionary is extremely insulting.
I don't have a closed mind either, that's another insult from you.
I find Miranda Yardley and Fionne Orlander very informative on the whole trans woman debate. Debbie Hayton, not so much
Maybe you should take your own advice and expand your reading material .

trisher

Chewbacca you are entirely entitled to think that. What you are not entitled to do is to insist that only women menstruate when some of those who menstruate choose not to be called women. Of course you can make your arguments to them. Of course you can tell them they are wrong but if they choose not to believe you, you cannot make them call themselves anything.
You may even be right about the word woman although I'm not sure calling a product for people can be seen as dehumanising it. It is in any case a very recent change and who knows what else may follow.
All of this anger, all of this confrontation has been caused by a few outspoken transgender people who are possibly not typical of the whole community. The response from some claiming to be feminists has been anger and antagonism which has only served to inflame matters. Inclusivity, the protection of the weakest, the ability to negotiate and embrace others have always been part of the feminism I believe in. Patriachies survive through division and conflict.
The trans community has been around for a long time. It has not committed the crimes some insist will happen. It has not undermined or eroded women's rights. I wish those who are so vocal about this would attach themselves to some of the very real injustices currently being inflicted upon women and stop imagining how transwomen will behave. Most of them are victims and not the enemy.

Really well written. There really is always a few letting down any demographic but again, listening to the loudest, the angriest... over the majority is a choice.

This is what sucks about the invention of social media sometimes, that it gives the vocal extreme a platform.

Most people really just want to be who they are and live their lives accepted.

Galaxy

It has eroded womens rights though, the right to self determination, the right to single sex spaces, women are loosing spaces on scholarships, men are taking spaces on boards etc that have been specifically set aside for women, and to be fair all the women I know who are vocal on this subject are also very vocal on subjects such as abortion, prostitution, male violence etc etc.

Do you have any evidence of the numbers involved Galaxy? I bet there are more women losing their jobs when they get pregnant! pregnantthenscrewed.com

Most people really just want to be who they are and live their lives accepted.

And of course they can. Provided that they don't expect everyone else to make exceptional allowances for their own particular problems or life choices.

Flowershop I asked you because it was a lead on to a point, not because I was calling you that. I was asking if you accept that others may view you that way. I don't think it came out as I intended and for that I apologise.

I accept your answer that you cannot be either because you don't recognise those terms.

So thank you for answering, it makes it easier to understand.

Can I ask though, if others who would call you that do, would it therefor be an insult if they are just working with their belief system and your view makes them feel discriminated against?

To clarify, I am not calling you closed minded as a person, just as it relates to this topic that you seem 100% set in your views on.

I apologise for the misunderstanding.

I will also apologise if you are not 100% closed minded on the acceptance of trans people and I was wrong?

Well if you are talking about the loss of single sex spaces you are talking about the entire female population. I suppose I am of the view that no women should lose out to make men feel better.

You asked me about being transphobic or trans exclusionary as well starblaze.
You dont have to believe what others do not to discriminate against them starblaze. I dont believe in god this does not mean I am discriminatory against people who do.

Galaxy I agree with you there but it does make me think about the fact that some people I am happy to share communal spaces with but not strangers. I'm sure I'm not the only one who doesn't feel stalls give enough bathroom privacy and doesn't like to get changed in front of other women who are sometimes very judgemental over women's appearance.

I remember a young woman giggling with her friend when she saw my newly vacated stomach like I didn't exist or post partum women lose the ability to hear "ew look at her".

So is there a way to accommodate everyone?

Isn't that what it's all really about?

Galaxy you answered did you not by reversing it and understanding what I meant?

Or did you mean to insult me? Because I hadn't read it that way.

People's opinions of what I meant aren't really ok when I have explained several times.

Yes of course single sex spaces and mixed. It's very easy.

Sorry that didn't particularly address your issues, single sex and mixed, both with cubicles.

To be honest there are times during the pregnancy and birth process where I wouldn't have cared if the entire England football team and a 300 piece orchestra was in the room, probably wouldn't have noticed but that was a very sore and vulnerable time where I really needed some more confortable clothes

All I want is a cubicle to get changed/go to the loo in. I don't care what the sign on the door says. I have used cubicles in a men's loo when the queue for the ladies was too long. We simply walked in and took over. Disabled loos are usually unisex are they more dangerous?

Trisher where I work there are 2 staff toilets, one marked male and one marked female.

We currently have 1 male member of staff to about 20 female.

There is no difference inside the toilet, both the same.

Its interesting that some wait for the female toilet and the rest of us are all regarded as a bit naughty lol

Some have stronger bladders than others Starblaze they're just showing off

Don't disabled toilets allow only one person at a time?

The trans community has been around for a long time. It has not committed the crimes some insist will happen.

Crimes have been committed by people, usually males, who claimed to be the opposite sex and had that accepted as fact by e.g. hospitals and prisons.

Whether those people are part of the trans community, or imposters, they were given the opportunity to commit their crimes by the current acceptance of the demands of trans activists.
In past years, until very recently, that opportunity was not available.

I just want to weep when the conversation turns to toilets. If only that were the issue ?????

Medical Definition of Male
Medical Author: Melissa Conrad Stöppler, MD
^Reviewed on 12/12/2018

Male: The sex that produces spermatozoa.

Medical Definition of Female
Medical Author: William C. Shiel Jr., MD, FACP, FACR
Reviewed on 12/12/2018
Female: The traditional definition of female was "an individual of the sex that bears young" or "that produces ova or eggs". However, things are not so simple today. Female can be defined by physical appearance, by chromosome constitution (see Female chromosome complement), or by gender identification. Female chromosome complement: The large majority of females have a 46, XX chromosome complement (46 chromosomes including two X chromosomes). A minority of females have other chromosome constitutions such as 45,X (45 chromosomes including only one X chromosome) and 47,XXX (47 chromosomes including three X chromosomes).

www.medicinenet.com/script/main/art.asp?articlekey=4257#:~:text=Medical%20Definition%20of%20Male&text=Male%3A%20The%20sex%20that%20produces%20spermatozoa.