Ding Dong .... round 2

One of the things I like about GN is the high standard of debate on the forums and the respect members have for each other. Long may that continue, so no offence taken, or I hope given, Hon. Members!

The Scottish referendum, whatever the result, will call into question all sorts of issues, from the serious to the trivial and no doubt there will be racist trumpetings from both sides of the border. If we do have to separate it will be sad after all these years but people's wishes have to be respected. What will also have to be respected are the rights and responsibilities of the ROUK, whose primary duty will be to protect the interests of its own citizens.

Hopefully, separation arrangements satisfactory on both sides of the border will be thrashed out, but I am really not sure how much detailed work has been done in that respect. Scotland's status within the EU and relationship to Sterling are vital matters and if I were a Scottish voter I would need to be absolutely sure about them before I committed myself to a vote. After all, Braveheart-style nationalistic rhetoric will not put porridge in the bowl. Those oilfields won't last forever and they are vulnerable.

You speak good sense papaoscar. With all the instability in the world I find all the talk of separation worrying, however much one can understand the emotional ties & arguments. Even if we are all part of the EU in the end, I believe we will be more able to assert ourselves in the UK stays as it is with adaptations to devolve more functions.

(Re Asda - I know their current expansion will focus on the SE but they have had quite a presence for a long time in & around London with no shortage of customers - and there are a lot of northerners in the area to support them too.)

Does anyone know anything about the history regarding the uniting of England, Scotland, Wales and Northern Ireland? That was probably just as thought provoking as separating.

I am not a historian, but I suspect the uniting of the UK was largely down to the English taking over. That's why we English aren't always loved as we should be!

I thought about that after I'd written it! Put it down to age! It would have been England though, not the UK.

The union of the kingdoms of England and Ireland and that of Scotland happened when Elizabeth 1 died with no heir, so the throne went to her nearest male relation, James VI, son of Mary Queen of Scots and grandson of Mary Tudor, the sister of Henry VIII. He became James I and based himself in England, where he styled himself "King of Great Britain and Ireland"

There were separate parliaments in Scotland and England until 1707.

Thank you, I feel better now!

May I just throw in 'such a parcel of rogues in a nation' without comment or explanation?
Papaoscar complimented us on our high standard of debate so I thought I'd introduce a bit more controversy.

I'm no historian but like the subject. Our history, that of the British Isles I mean, is a real mash-up of Celtic, Pictish, Roman, Viking, Anglo-Saxon and Norman cultures, often tribal in nature and dominated by rich and powerful elites all with their own particular axes to grind. We are certainly all a mongrel breed and it's probably a miracle that the UK as such evolved at all, but it did and prospered. Where it goes from here-on is going to be very interesting for many reasons.

mcem you can throw in anything you like. You papaoscar are so right and it will be interesting as to where it goes from here. I imagine you could already add a few more cultures to the mix. As regards dominated by the rich, that hasn't changed either. Even a few have been added to them! Talking of history, I was researching my husband's family and found a couple in the register of the Hearth Tax of 1665. The person collecting the taxes was from the same family who owns half of the businesses properties on the Isle of Wight now. Nothing has changed and everything has changed!

Elegran gave very good and succinct summary of how the UK came into being. A balanced and politically neutral account. As always in political debate, there are different points of view. There are some who might say that James VI took over the throne of England after succeeding Elizabeth I ( who had his mother beheaded) and the (Scottish) Stuart dynasty succeeded the Tudors. This event was the Union of the Crowns. James however was not a shining example of a monarch. The Act of Union was in 1707 when the Parliaments united. Or alternative view - that Scotland was sold down the river by 'the parcel of rogues' ie Scots with ulterior motives. I make no comment on where I stand but it's clear that many of the emotional responses of today stem from controversy back then.
Sorry if I'm teaching gransnetters to suck eggs but some posters did seem genuinely interested.
Anno I was interested to see on last night's news that Nicola Sturgeon made pretty much the same comments about left of centre politics in Scotland post- independence as you did earlier. That's something of a shift in emphasis in the debate, don't you think?
Assuming that Granny23 is at the SNP conference it will be interesting to see what she might have to contribute on her return.
Papaoscar I'm enjoying your wider view!

This is so interesting, thanks Elegran and mcem for your summaries of the history in these islands.

I wish we all understood our own history better than we do. I'm lazy about reading historical texts, but this discussion is great, thanks

When I was younger I went through a Jean Plaidy phase and for a while was a great fan of historical fiction - quite painless, easy reading and even if not 100% accurate certainly gave a taste of the times and also a context for the hard facts. Both DDs enjoyed the books and one now has a real interest in history while the other is a Tudors fan ( not just the tv series ). Think the story of Elizabeth 1 and Mary Queen of Scots is told in The Royal Road to Fotheringay. Now feeling I need to revisit Holyrood and Falkland palaces and the new visitor centre at Bannockburn!

I was one generation out in James VI's English ancestry - Margaret Tudor was his greatgrandmother, not his grandmother. Sorry.

Elizabeth called Mary "cousin" but that was a bit vague. Mary's father James V (grandfather of James VI ) was Elizabeth's first cousin.

Note - Margaret not Mary. I wouldn't want to lead you astray among the Tudors. That was a dangerous time for many.

I wonder what Nick Clegg and Nigel Farage would say if they knew that their debate has led to such an interesting discussion on the history and politics of these islands. It puts the whole thought of becoming a part of Europe into a different perspective. Please carry on, I'm finding it really interesting.

Don't know about you Elegran but I've had to do a bit of mental dredging through the history lessons I've taught. Recently, DGS (just turned 5) was looking at 'paper money' and spotted Bruce and the spider on £20 note. Has proudly repeated the story to anyone who'll listen as they share the name. Have to admit that in his version there is mention of goodies and baddies. Will work on that! He was less interested in R. Burns on £10 note! Will work on that too!

Ps I too have found it fascinating to exchange questions, answers, facts and opinions without any point-scoring. If only the politicians would follow our fine example!

But, going back to the Rory Stewart programme would there now be a debate about the future of Scotland if the Romans hadn't built Hadrians Wall all those years ago? Surely that's when the 'National Identity' started to evolve?

Along with Jean Plaidy, ne of my favourite historical novelists is Cynthia Harrod Eagles. Her series Dynasty centres on one family from the 14th to the twentieth century. Located in Yorkshire it shows how one family evolved to become wealthy. With one at Court, one in the Church and one in the Military from each generation it gives a very good overview of the politics of the time and how the general population were affected.

Sorry Tegan not sure about that. I think papaoscar's earlier post gave an insight into how complicated our background is. After all, Hadrian's wall didn't halt the Roman advance. It took the Picts in Angus to stop them. (very simplistic view I admit). If today's border had been based around the extent of the Roman advance it would be much further north. Apologies if I misinterpreted your comment.

Yes, I'm forgetting that Hadrians Wall is further south [I've never actually seen it ] but what it does do is make a definate north/south divide if you allow for the Border Country above it. I suppose I tend to find nationalism rather frightening, especially when it's power is harnessed by political parties. Although I'm very much in favour of National Pride, if the edges don't blur too much.

There is a differentiation Tegan between national pride and international arrogance over others, isn't there? Just as it is not the same to be an ardent believer in your own religion/football team/school/family as it is to beat up anyone of a different religion/football team/school/family or declare them fit to be put to death.

Tegan in view of your clear interest, may I make a suggestion. Please check out a map of Scotland and you'll soon be able to see how surprisingly far north the romans ventured.
Further north than Hadrian's wall and the borders, further north than Edinburgh and Fife. Keep going until you reach the county of Angus and the town of Brechin. Just to the west of this in Perthshire you may find Fortingall where traces of a roman camp can still be seen. Admittedly, there are those who attribute the final roman defeat to the weather and not the picts!
As for wondering if we'd be having the debate about the future of Scotland if that had been different, I'd say yes we would in view of the centuries of political wrangling that followed. This is not the first debate and I'm sure it won't be the last!
(Fully endorse Elegran's comments on nationalism.)

As a Scot born, bred and educated, though with 25% English ancestry, it's galling to have to watch from the sidelines while my nationality is decided for me. This is as good a discussion of the subject as I have yet encountered - dispassionate and increasingly well-informed, thanks to mcem , Elegran and papaoscar.