Eddie Izzard

Morning hugshelp. I'm sorry you have decided to leave. These threads quickly polarise.
Its a difficult subject-the trans issue. It seems that the two sides have a gaping chasm between them just shouting across to each other. Bit like Brexit really, when in fact the whole issue is more nuanced and tricky.

There are multiple layers to the issue that need addressing, from women's spaces, transitioning children, employment rights (for women)sports, prisons etc. Also, the issue that often doesn't make it to such threads is the paraphilias and fetishes that sit under the trans umbrella. Each deserves to be explored in an adult way without accusations being flung about. Also in an evidenced based way rather than subjective feelings.
Eddie Izzard claiming to be a girl just trivializes the whole issue.

No one has said there isn't abuse or women aren't sexually assaulted by men. It is seldom transwomen who do this though.

Men offend at the same rate regardless of how they define themselves.

This issue is about women and men. Women have a few protections as men are much more violent. Some men want to access the protections set aside for women and girls. That's the issue. Whether women and girls give up rights to validate and/or protect some men. Personally I think nope. Men need to sort themselves out and be kinder to feminine men.

www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/3348290-It-will-never-happen-resource-thread

Long thread about all the things we are told not to worry about because of course it wouldn't happen.

And if a vegetarian was offered a delicious meal on the pretence it is meat free. They are being lied to.

Love this point. Is a vegetarian pie still a vegetarian pie if it's full of sausages? One to ponder...

LumpySpacedPrincess

Eddie Izzard on his first day in women's clothes, (not as trans though, he just liked to wear women's clothes), was chased out of a woman's public loo by a group of teenage girls. How were the girls supposed to know his intentions? Was he right or wrong to be in there in the first place?

He was at that point in time defining himself as a heterosexual transvestite so, as a self-defined heterosexual male he had no right to go into women's toilets.
He was wrong, the girls were in the right.

I don't support self-id at all.

I also don't support the current system of changing birth certificates. It should stop short at issuing a Gender Recognition Certificate, not proceed to putting a lie on a birth certificate.

... he had no right to go into women's toilets
He was wrong, the girls were in the right
Also, he was a grown man and the girls were teenagers and he knew that.
The power dynamics writ large.

trisher

But I thought it was penises that bothered people? If he had had surgery the transman might have one. Is it then assumed that that s OK because he won't use it? But if his sexual preference was females might he be tempted? Or is it only people born as males who do such thing?

It's really unlikely that a transman (female) who is taking hormones in order to look male, and who is a medical professional passing as male, would suddenly put themselves in a situation of saying they are female in order to examine a female patient.

That is quite a ridiculous suggestion trisher.

FarNorth
I totally agree there.

Trans people are already protected in law.
It doesn't need to be changed.

FarNorth

trisher

But I thought it was penises that bothered people? If he had had surgery the transman might have one. Is it then assumed that that s OK because he won't use it? But if his sexual preference was females might he be tempted? Or is it only people born as males who do such thing?

It's really unlikely that a transman (female) who is taking hormones in order to look male, and who is a medical professional passing as male, would suddenly put themselves in a situation of saying they are female in order to examine a female patient.

That is quite a ridiculous suggestion trisher.

I didn't say the transman had to say they are female in order to examine a female patient. Many male doctors and nurses examine female patients. But some deny the existence of trans so that's interesting as well. Because according to that theory any transman should be entitled to examine any woman- being female.
Of course it is FarNorth just as ridiculous as the idea that a transwomen who is a medical professional taking hormones and passing (as you put it- I'd use identifying) as female would put themselves in a position where they might be even accused of abuse. There will no doubt be an occasional exception to that, but far less I think than male doctors who abuse or mistreat their patients.
It seems however to be a constant theme on this thread that because a few use the trans issue for their own ends all trans people must suffer.

trisher I used the term 'passing' to mean that the person looks convincingly like a male.
You have already emphasised the importance of looks to someone's 'gender identity' .

If a woman asks for a female doctor or nurse, when an intimate examination is to be done, then that is what she should have.
Why would a transwoman worker want to insist on their 'right' to examine that woman?

You know that many trans people do not agree with your views, trisher?

Have you checked out Kristina Harrison, Rose of Dawn, Debbie Hayton, Miranda Yardley?
Those are just a few who have spoken and written publicly about this.

athousandflowers.net/2018/02/01/we-asked-womens-aid-centres-if-theyre-trans-inclusive-and-heres-what-they-said/

It's obvious that this journalist spoke to management-level staff who knew well enough to trot out the lines they've been given in training.
Training that will probably have been created by the slightly-biased LGBT Scotland or Scottish Trans Alliance (the article was about Scotland).

The article's author mentions the fact that Scottish Government funding requires organisations to be trans-inclusive, but then dismisses it as if it will have no influence.
Those management-level staff know which side their bread is buttered.

because a few use the trans issue for their own ends all trans people must suffer

Similarly, because a few men want to pretend to be women occasionally, all women must suffer.

Chewbacca

*because a few use the trans issue for their own ends all trans people must suffer*

Similarly, because a few men want to pretend to be women occasionally, all women must suffer.

I'm not suffering Chewbacca probably neither are you. The level of violence suffered by transpeople is rapidly increasing. I've no doubt you think you are being perfectly reasonable and not contributing to this, but there is no doubt that presenting negative images, making comments which are derogatory and refusing to recognise anyone only serves to add fuel to those who are violent. So perhaps it is time to stop pretending that it is nothing to do with you. I have no doubt that the landladies in the 1950s who stuck signs outside their properties saying "No Blacks, No Irish" imagined that racial harrasment was nothing to do with them either.
These are the figures if you are at all interested www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-48756370

FarNorth

athousandflowers.net/2018/02/01/we-asked-womens-aid-centres-if-theyre-trans-inclusive-and-heres-what-they-said/

It's obvious that this journalist spoke to management-level staff who knew well enough to trot out the lines they've been given in training.
Training that will probably have been created by the slightly-biased LGBT Scotland or Scottish Trans Alliance (the article was about Scotland).

The article's author mentions the fact that Scottish Government funding requires organisations to be trans-inclusive, but then dismisses it as if it will have no influence.
Those management-level staff know which side their bread is buttered.

Actually if you bother to read it she spoke to whoever answered the phone. But no matter who she spoke to, her assessment that what you are doing by criticising women's refuges, is actually dangerous and damaging to the very women you claim to be protecting, is completely accurate. If they do not have confidence in the service and do not access it because of your scaremongering you might very well be signing their death certificate. But hey as long as you get your own views about transwomen publicised who cares about that?

trisher, when you say that the level of violence against transwomen is increasing, who exactly is being violent? is it women?or is it other men?

Trisher you’ve convinced me.

I’ve been following this thread with interest and discussing it with some trans friends. You’ve convinced me that self ID is a terrible idea and biological males do not belong in women’s spaces.

petunia

trisher, when you say that the level of violence against transwomen is increasing, who exactly is being violent? is it women?or is it other men?

There aren't the statistics on that petunia I have no doubt that most of the actual violence will be committed by men, however there will be in the background women shreaking out terms of abuse, based mostly on prejudice and preconceptions. If what you are doing is trying to say men are responsible for most violence of course they are, all the more reason for women to stand with the victims whatever their gender and not to encourage or justify the violence.

I don’t see any women on here encouraging or justifying violence, Trisher.

Just a quick visit, as I think there is an important point to be made for the sake of women.

A hate crime is defined as "any criminal offence which is perceived, by the victim or any other person, to be motivated by a hostility or prejudice" based on one of five categories: religion, faith or belief; race, ethnicity or nationality; sexual orientation; disability; or gender identity.

Please note the word PERCEIVED. Please also note the glaring omission of sex on the list - violence against women because they are women, one of the most common forms of violence worldwide, is omitted. Who is it then that lacks equitable rights?

And of course I condone no crime committed against anyone for any reason.

Trisher-If the violence is coming from men, this can not be blamed on women wanting men out of their safe spaces.

You paint a picture of a shrinking violet trans woman shaking with fear because of name calling. Yet documented cases, you know, the ones where stats are kept, show predominately transwomen attacking, raping or sexually assaulting women. While I know that not all transwomen are violent, some of them are because they were violent as men.

Back to Eddie Izzard, the girls who chased him out of the ladies toilets were right to do it. And brave. They had no idea whether he was an innocent transwoman who just went to pee, or someone who wished them harm.

How do we tell the difference if all barriers come down

Blossoming

Trisher you’ve convinced me.

I’ve been following this thread with interest and discussing it with some trans friends. You’ve convinced me that self ID is a terrible idea and biological males do not belong in women’s spaces.

Had you really no preconceptions then?. Self id has been operational in Ireland (not a place known for its progressive views) for 5 years. It seems to be working well.

hugshelp you may very well have. point but how can that be viewed as anything to do with transpeople? Campaign to have it admitted to the law by all means but don't blame them because it isn't here.

I'm not suffering Chewbacca probably neither are you

So trisher, because you, and you assume, I, are not currently suffering any personal abuse or invasion of privacy, others have no problem either? How narrow visioned is that. The fact that there are currently vulnerable women in refuges, prisons, hospitals, care home facilities who have personally begged to not have men in their safe spaces because they fear for their safety, is irrelevant? The fact that there have been criminal convictions where a transgender has sexually assaulted women and children is irrelevant?

There has been several threads on this same subject in recent months and the vast percentage of contributors to them have almost unanimously agreed that they are not comfortable with a man, dressed in anyway he wants to dress, in their safe spaces. They are not comfortable with a man who happens to wake up some mornings, don a frock, a pair of high heels and a whip of lipstick and call himself a woman for a day and invade areas specifically for women. Why do you struggle to understand that? Why have you gaslit every poster who has presented well researched evidence, that having a man in safe spaces is an abuse of women's privacy and safety? Why do you have so little understanding of why a parent would be uncomfortable with a man, dressed in a girl guide uniform, sharing their daughter's tent? I thought for a while that it was just because you liked to champion the oppressed but, as that's predominantly cis women and children, that thought no longer seems aappropriate. So I'm still wondering.......