Eddie Izzard

So can you explain this to me. You think because some transwomen may constitute a threat in Women's refuges (which is disputable) all transwomen should be banned from them. There is substantial evidence that the majority of paedophiles are men, but we do not ban all men from working in childcare or education. Why not? Are we somehow less protective of children?

Do you think you've changed even one person's mind trisher? On this, or any of the other threads on this subject? Even just one?

??? Chewbacca for your 17:32 post. My friend suffered at the hands of a transwomen and actually other women are suffering mentally because of threats over their sex-based rights from trans-activists.

However, I am much cheered that my RL friends take the stance that you and I and the majority of GNetters in this thread take.

trisher Actually if you bother to read it she spoke to whoever answered the phone.

Of course I read it and saw that.
Sometimes the person who answered the phone didn't know and got someone else to speak.
It's obvious that those giving the answers would be management-level in the centres.

trisher

Blossoming

Trisher you’ve convinced me.

I’ve been following this thread with interest and discussing it with some trans friends. You’ve convinced me that self ID is a terrible idea and biological males do not belong in women’s spaces.

Had you really no preconceptions then?. Self id has been operational in Ireland (not a place known for its progressive views) for 5 years. It seems to be working well.

grahamlinehan.substack.com/p/irelands-self-id-nightmare

www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/3348290-It-will-never-happen-resource-thread

Just in case you missed this trisher.
Someone posted it earlier.
It's an 18 page thread from mumsnet, of assaults etc by transwomen (or perhaps some are only men claiming to be transwomen, how are we to know?).
These are things that we are told don't happen, yet they do.

It's not brave. Bravery is putting your life on the line and he's not doing that. I admired him for running all those marathons and he is very funny, but brave no!

Bravery is being 10 years old and having this happen to you:

A transgender woman threatened to stab a 10-year-old girl’s mother during a terrifying sexual assault in the female toilets of a Morrison’s supermarket. Katie Dolatowski, 18, admitted grabbing the youngster by her face and forcing her into the cubicle before demanding she take her trousers off at the store in Fife, Scotland, on 4 March 2019. She carried out a similar attack just weeks earlier, on 8 February, when another young girl using the toilet at an Asda store in Halbeath spotted Dolatowski using a mobile phone to spy on her over the partition wall.

Read more: metro.co.uk/2019/03/16/transgender-woman-18-sexually-assaulted-girl-10-morrisons-toilet-8914577/?ito=cbshare

trisher

So can you explain this to me. You think because some transwomen may constitute a threat in Women's refuges (which is disputable) all transwomen should be banned from them. There is substantial evidence that the majority of paedophiles are men, but we do not ban all men from working in childcare or education. Why not? Are we somehow less protective of children?

Yes, men, women, transmen and transwomen should be able to pursue whatever career they want, free from discrimination. Women's rape crisis centres, set up by and for women, are not for men or transwomen.

hugshelp

trisher

Blossoming

Trisher you’ve convinced me.

I’ve been following this thread with interest and discussing it with some trans friends. You’ve convinced me that self ID is a terrible idea and biological males do not belong in women’s spaces.

Had you really no preconceptions then?. Self id has been operational in Ireland (not a place known for its progressive views) for 5 years. It seems to be working well.

grahamlinehan.substack.com/p/irelands-self-id-nightmare

My goodness, that's a chilling document!

https://www.gransnet.com/uploads/talk/202012/medium-541864-ednb82rxoaing65.png https://www.gransnet.com/uploads/talk/202012/medium-274432-ednb82zxkaampla.png

Twitter September 2019:

Trans woman who looks like this and calls women 'bitches' issues a threat to any woman who would dare challenge them for using a women's toilet.

Chewbacca

Do you think you've changed even one person's mind trisher? On this, or any of the other threads on this subject? Even just one?

Chewbacca No I don't think I have. Possibly I may have made some think a lttle bit, but prejudice and fear is always deep seated and unlikely to be altered easily. And you may ask why do I continue? I have at many times thought of just leaving you all to it, but then somebody posts something which is eoither a direct question to me, something so unbelievable it needs combatting or something I know and feel passionately about. And so in spite of myself I return to post. When I feel really down about this I think of the people who really suffer, the trans people driven to suicide, the people who live their lives never knowng where they belong. When I was working one of my colleagues sometimes called me Rosa after Rosa Luxembourg. It's a name I'm proud to aspire to. In her words Freedom is always and exclusively freedom for the one who thinks differently.

trisher are you totally unable to understand and empathise with women in refuges that are triggered by the presence of anyone with a male body, even if that male body identifies as a transwoman? Why do you think refuges don't have male staff, or allow older male children to stay with their mothers and female siblings? Not because the staff aren't able to do their best safeguarding vetting but because the presence of these individuals is traumatic to some women.

Quoting myself here as you didn't answer my earlier post, maybe you didn't notice it trisher Do you honestly think refuges ban male staff and teenage boys from staying with their mothers because they think they are a physical danger to the women in their care?

Its such a relief to see that the majority of contributors to this thread are both sympathetic/empathic to the difficulties trans people face, whilst able to link that the concerns about the self ID issue, the number of trans involved in sexual and violent assaults.
trisher, I've disagreed with pretty much all your contributions. You seem unable to accept that its ok for feminist women to take a different view than you do.
To accuse other women of "shreaking out terms of abuse, based mostly on prejudice and preconceptions" is offensive. You seem unable to look at this complex issue from anything other than one perspective.

hugshelp

trisher

Blossoming

Trisher you’ve convinced me.

I’ve been following this thread with interest and discussing it with some trans friends. You’ve convinced me that self ID is a terrible idea and biological males do not belong in women’s spaces.

Had you really no preconceptions then?. Self id has been operational in Ireland (not a place known for its progressive views) for 5 years. It seems to be working well.

grahamlinehan.substack.com/p/irelands-self-id-nightmare

hugshelp the story is an undeniable sad and terrible one which no one would or could support. However using it to justify transphobia is a sep too far. The failure of the system to support or deal succesfully with this young person is not the fault of transpeople.
However the person who posted this has in the past been warned by the police for harassing a transwoman and her family, condemned for trivialising the holocaust and has generally behaved in ways which no one should accept. So I prefer not to give weight to anything he posts.He was also banned from Twitter at one point.

I think there are two main problems with the issue of a transgender individual's rights.
firstly, the word sex has been quietly and stealthily removed from our language. Even an application for for something as innocuous as a library card will ask for gender not sex. This blurs boundaries. It causes confusion.

Secondly, to support unconditionally transgender rights, whether that is the media or politicians, or the public is seen as progressive and sympathetic. Its seen as the right thing to do. Anything other than 100% acceptance of the mantra transwomen are women is seen as transphobic and bigoted.

And so, because I dont fancy the idea of a Karen White in the next cubicle to me, or even the girlish Eddie, in the ladies, I must be a bigot. Oh dear. How sad. Never mind!

To accuse other women of "shreaking out terms of abuse, based mostly on prejudice and preconceptions" is offensive. You seem unable to look at this complex issue from anything other than one perspective.
Of course it is complex I don't think I have ever said it wasn't. What is simple is establishing freedoms and working hard to iron out the complications rather than issuing blanket bans
As for the remarks about women I suppose if you have never seen or heard it you have some sort of sugared view of how women behave. I haven't. I will support them, work for their advancement and freedoms, campaign for things which will improve their lives, it doesn't mean I don't know (because I have witnessed it) how some actively encourage boys and men to be violent by words and deeds. You may wonder why male violence continues, well one of the reasons is the women who expect and encourage it in their sons. I don't blame them, many of them are living, and know their sons will grow up, in communities where they need to fight their corner. But neither will I turn a blind eye to it. It's there.

Blaming women for men’s violence. Wow. How about men taking some responsibility for their own actions?

womansplaceuk.org/the-irish-question/

However, there seems to be a misunderstanding about the way Irish equality law works and a lack of knowledge of the legal exceptions and caveats which mean Ireland does not, in fact or practice, have a simple self-declaratory system. To claim it does misrepresents the situation there.

The Act also allows people to be treated differently on the basis of their ‘gender’ in all of the following circumstances:
People can be treated differently in relation to cosmetic services that involve physical contact – for instance, hairdressing, body waxing, and so on;
People can also be treated differently if there is a risk that you could be embarrassed because of a lack of privacy;
People can be treated differently at sporting events if the differences are reasonably necessary and relevant and, in relation to educational establishments, having regard to the nature of the facilities or events.
Insurance companies may differently decide how much to charge people for annuities, pensions, insurance policies and so on, based on different risk assessments, if the differences are based on proper research and statistics (although EU law proscribes the limit of this exemption in so far as men and women must be treated the same).
People can be treated differently if it’s necessary for a drama or entertainment production.
A person making a will or a gift is entitled to choose whoever they want to benefit.
Services may promote or favour the special interests of one person or group over another.
Goods and services which can be reasonably considered as being suitable only for the special needs of certain people may be provided.
In shared accommodation people may be treated differently in relation to personal privacy where lack of privacy might cause embarrassment.
When the accommodation is provided by a person in their private home, if for example a home-owner took in a lodger.
When housing is provided by or on behalf of the Minister for Justice and Equality.
When the accommodation is reserved for a particular category of people.
Single sex schools are allowed.
Institutions providing religious training to ministers of a particular religion may admit students of only one ‘gender’.
Third-level or adult education institutions may treat students differently by way of traditional university sponsorships, scholarships, bursaries, and so on.
Clubs may be established for a particular group of people.
Any person can be refused goods, services or accommodation if an experienced provider believes that there would be a substantial risk of criminal behaviour or disorderly conduct by that person, including abusing the service and causing trouble by being abusive or aggressive.
A person may be treated differently because of a doctor’s clinical judgement in relation to the person’s medical condition.

how some actively encourage boys and men to be violent by words and deeds

First rule of misogyny, women are responsible for what men do.

So now you're blaming women for actively expecting and encouraging their sons to be violent by words and deeds.

You don't like women much do you trisher?

Rosie51

^trisher are you totally unable to understand and empathise with women in refuges that are triggered by the presence of anyone with a male body, even if that male body identifies as a transwoman? Why do you think refuges don't have male staff, or allow older male children to stay with their mothers and female siblings? Not because the staff aren't able to do their best safeguarding vetting but because the presence of these individuals is traumatic to some women.^

Quoting myself here as you didn't answer my earlier post, maybe you didn't notice it trisher Do you honestly think refuges ban male staff and teenage boys from staying with their mothers because they think they are a physical danger to the women in their care?

Rosie51 I don't work in women's refuges so I can only post what I believe, the staff there are the experts. I trust them to adequately deal with, support and protect the women they take into their care.
Perhaps you can explain to me how doubting their abilities does anything at all to further the work they do or protect vulnerable women. As I said it may even stop a woman accessing the services she desperately needs.

SueDonim

Blaming women for men’s violence. Wow. How about men taking some responsibility for their own actions?

I said one of the reasons SueDonim I accept that you find this thread just an excuse for point scoring but really do you need to sink so low? if you are interested at all in changing men's attitudes you bend to look at the causes of violence. If you don't care of course, don't bother.

Should be need not bend of course !
Still who cares!

Any chance you could give your opinion on my last post at 18.59 trisher ?

Safe third spaces have been suggested but it seems transwomen are not prepared to make that accommodation, preferring that natal women have to be the accommodating people. I really don't think Stonewall mantras like "acceptance without exception" and "no discussion" are helpful. Issues like Barbie Kardashian are one result.