M&S diversity officers give staff pronoun badges……. a step too far?

So if I worked for M & S (and I would be as rubbish at that as making bribes) would it be ok to show me respect by referring me to me as adult human female for example as indicated on my badge. I think that would be an interesting legal dilemma.

But I, as a customer, don't need to know what their personal pecadilloes are do I? I'm not going to address them as anything other than "you", say please and thank you and then leave. I think it's unprofessional to drag gender politics into the work place, especially when it's of no interest or benefit to the paying customer. Is a badge with a pronoun really going to provide "validation" or "authentication" for how someone wants to live their private life? Really?

Cross post Galaxy

Chewbacca

But I, as a customer, don't need to know what their personal pecadilloes are do I? I'm not going to address them as anything other than "you", say please and thank you and then leave. I think it's unprofessional to drag gender politics into the work place, especially when it's of no interest or benefit to the paying customer. Is a badge with a pronoun really going to provide "validation" or "authentication" for how someone wants to live their private life? Really?

Because for you or I and most people, we go out and we are generally happy for people to assume our gender. It doesn't cause us any issues.

If I were to be misgendered I would not have any fear correcting them.

For a trans person, correcting others comes with a fear. Fear that they will not be accepted or be subject to outright hostility.

These badges not only help them feel safer but allies are wearing them too, which means that the chances of being challenged on their gender is reduced.

Also there are mental health issues tied to being born in a different body to how you feel. Being misgendered can be painful and bring those issues back to light.

So there are lots of reasons why and they are all positive.

I think gender is oppressive for men and women so I wouldnt be happy for anyone to assume my gender. I am fine with people observing my sex.

I prefer people don't observe my sex but each to their own

I was shopping in M and S recently and I went to find my DH who was trying on some trousers in the Men’s Changing Room, as I reached the entrance a male assistant warned me that it was the Men’s Changing Room. Clearly women aren’t allowed in the MCR and quite right too. I was only going to call to him.

So does someone identifying as a man have the right to use the MCR ?

What’s the situation with the Ladies and Gents in M and S?

It’s so confusing and I find rather frightening.

You dont want people to know you are a woman ? Violetsky

VioletSky

I prefer people don't observe my sex but each to their own

But it's not each to their own, is it? Not when people are expected to declare their pronouns at the request of an employer, and when a refusal to do so is taken as evidence of transphobia.

I have no problem with anyone conducting their private lives as they wish, and if they wish to 'present as' a different sex from the one they were born with, that's up to them. But this is not about that, is it? It is about making a statement. About making the private public, and dragging the public into what in most circumstances is a private matter.

I can't imagine why an employer would think that staff would want to let the general public know about their private lives. Apart from it seeming rather self-indulgent to think that anyone cares, there is the risk that someone might prefer to keep that side of their lives private and have no wish to declare anything to outsiders. Why should an employer take it upon themselves to 'out' members of staff in this way? Is it even legal for them to do so?

The thing is, pronouns are becoming meaningless anyway. If 'she' can refer to anyone who identifies as a woman, when nobody who claims to be an ally can even say what a women is, there is little point in insisting on them when it alienates so many people who would otherwise be supportive.

GrannyMacawell

You dont want people to know you are a woman ? Violetsky

Oh no, when you have to explain your own joke it isn't funny.

I answered questions earlier... No response? I feel I might have been unheard without one

Waffle

These badges not only help them feel safer

Sorry, but I think that's a load of cobblers. If, for example, an assistant has a beard, an Adam's apple and a deep voice and is wearing a name badge "My name is Bill - female" I cannot, for one second believe that that will make him one iota safer. In fact, I would imagine that he would have put himself at serious risk of being targeted.

So there are lots of reasons why and they are all positive

Not for natal women they're not.

GrannyMacawell

Waffle

Really helpful in trying to have a positive discussion.

PaperMonster

Here it is:

sex-matters.org/posts/updates/pronouns/

I suggest reading the link posted by PaperMonster early on this thread and again on this page. Some people including transgender, may not want to state their pronouns for various reasons and cannot be made to do so.

Chewbacca

^These badges not only help them feel safer^

Sorry, but I think that's a load of cobblers. If, for example, an assistant has a beard, an Adam's apple and a deep voice and is wearing a name badge "My name is Bill - female" I cannot, for one second believe that that will make him one iota safer. In fact, I would imagine that he would have put himself at serious risk of being targeted.

Is that based on a real life experience?

I'm guessing not.

I do wonder what the point is of even asking me questions when my answers are never good enough.

They are answers though even if unliked and they are reasons given by trans people and their allies.

Who aren't "bad" for wanting change

I am not sure anyone has said anyone is bad. And of course many trans people are gender critical and would chose a different type of badge.

Galaxy

I am not sure anyone has said anyone is bad. And of course many trans people are gender critical and would chose a different type of badge.

Yes they can, choice is definitely given here

Staff asked for these badges. They are not being forced to use them they can choose to use them. The only people opposing this are those who want to impose their ideas and beliefs on other people. In an effort to do this they use all sorts of irrelevant examples. It really just proves they don't want choice they just want to impose their own ideas.

You didnt answer my question. You gave me waffle.

And if gender critical staff asked to wear adult human female what would happen. I dont understand all the ramifications of the forstater ruling but I think those asking for that would have a case.

The only people opposing this are those who want to impose their ideas and beliefs on other people

Oh the irony!

For a trans person, correcting others comes with a fear. Fear that they will not be accepted or be subject to outright hostility. These badges not only help them feel safer but allies are wearing them too, which means that the chances of being challenged on their gender is reduced.

I can't understand why wearing a badge that is, effectively, challenging someone's perceptions is going to make a transperson in a public-facing role any safer.

If someone would be hostile to a member of staff because of a mismatch between the customer's perception of the staff member's gender and the gender with with which they identified, the customer would, presumably still be objectionable and unpleasant if the staff member had on a badge that declared them to be of an apparently 'mismatched' gender. If, on the other hand, there were no badge, the chances of the customer stopping to think about the matter are probably slim to none.

As has been said upthread, most people really don't care who sells them their knickers or their Dine In For Two food. Wearing gender badges seems more like a challenge to bigots than a gesture of solidarity, and it is transpeople who are likely to suffer.

M&S would do better to have a zero-tolerance policy towards anyone who is rude to their staff, and leave people to make their own decisions about self-declaration of gender.

GrannyMacawell

You didnt answer my question. You gave me waffle.

Either explain what you mean

Accept that there is no answer good enough for you anyway as your views are firm

Or ask yourself what you are trying to achieve by grilling me

trisher

Staff asked for these badges. They are not being forced to use them they can choose to use them. The only people opposing this are those who want to impose their ideas and beliefs on other people. In an effort to do this they use all sorts of irrelevant examples. It really just proves they don't want choice they just want to impose their own ideas.

M&S has C78,000 staff members - have they canvassed them all asking for their views on this?
Did they hold a referendum and act upon a majority vote?
Or did they take up the suggestion of one employee who requested this, as reported?

It really just proves they don't want choice they just want to impose their own ideas.
Are they therefore imposing the views of a minority on the majority of their staff and, as a consequence, on their customers?