M&S diversity officers give staff pronoun badges……. a step too far?

Chewbacca

^The only people opposing this are those who want to impose their ideas and beliefs on other^ people

Oh the irony!

Which ideas and beliefs are these, please?

Doodledog I don't understand why having separate secure facilities and changing rooms that are essentially unisex wouldn't help some women feel safe... Yes I accept that they feel the way they do without needing to be able to understand their reasons

One question is not a grilling. A simpke one. You didnt answer.

Know i must ponder: why would that be?

Whatever all the other arguments, I repeat . M & S are giving staff the option of having pronouns in their badges. It is not obligatory.

Thats how it begins.

Calistemon

trisher

Staff asked for these badges. They are not being forced to use them they can choose to use them. The only people opposing this are those who want to impose their ideas and beliefs on other people. In an effort to do this they use all sorts of irrelevant examples. It really just proves they don't want choice they just want to impose their own ideas.

M&S has C78,000 staff members - have they canvassed them all asking for their views on this?
Did they hold a referendum and act upon a majority vote?
Or did they take up the suggestion of one employee who requested this, as reported?

It really just proves they don't want choice they just want to impose their own ideas.
Are they therefore imposing the views of a minority on the majority of their staff and, as a consequence, on their customers?

Noone has to have their pronoun on their badges. Some people have asked for it. It's called choice. No one iis imposing their ideas on anyone. You can choose not to do it.
One employee asked for it and the option has been made available. If the other 77999 choose not to do it they can do so.
Basically things will evolve as the employees make their choices.

What a storm in a M&S teapot!
If some people want to have their preferred pronouns on their badge there's always a Sharpie pen.

Which ideas and beliefs are these, please?

The idea that a man can say he's a woman and believes it's true? So all women should nod nicely and agree?

Golly can’t see why everyone is so hyped up over this, staff asked for it and staff who want to put on their pronouns on their badges can. Not a biggie. Things change and evolve. I remember my mother getting het up that the word gay changed meanings from ‘happy and bright’ to its current meaning. I sighed and rolled my eyes at her, the same way my sons roll their eyes at my dh when he bemoans whatever new thing he’s read in the paper he doesn’t get.
That reminds me I need to buy some new knickers from M&S!

Calistemon

What a storm in a M&S teapot!
If some people want to have their preferred pronouns on their badge there's always a Sharpie pen.

Well it isn't the trans allies getting het up about it.
I think perhaps the name badges remain M&S property and you could be accused of defacing them.

GrannyMacawell

Violetsky do you think , as a trans ally, that a man who who identifies as a women, but is still a biological man should be allowed in the swimming pool communal female changing room?

I answered you as best I could. I don't have all the answers and I do want women to feel safe.

So why are you saying I didn't answer or what I am saying is just "waffle"?

If I am doing my best to answer you and you are dismissing my answers and refusing to answer my questions, so. you are in fact grilling me.

Why on earth would I want to engage with that? I'm not relentlessly questioning anyone and expecting them to know all the answers.

This is a discussion. Have a discussion or please don't expect me to engage with you further.

M &S may need to think about ordering lots of badges to allow for those who change their gender on a daily basis. It does happen. We have a person living nearby who changes gender frequently and dresses accordingly including hair style. Will instructions be given to staff re addressing customers? Will they continue to use ‘Sir’ and ‘Madame’ or will this be deemed unacceptable?

Will they continue to use ‘Sir’ and ‘Madame’ or will this be deemed unacceptable?

Good question Gwyneth. Maybe we'll all be asked to choose a badge at the entrance and pin it to our coats whilst we shop? I'm going for "Hiirrr".

VioletSky

Doodledog I don't understand why having separate secure facilities and changing rooms that are essentially unisex wouldn't help some women feel safe... Yes I accept that they feel the way they do without needing to be able to understand their reasons

I don't understand this, sorry. You seem to be talking about two conflicting sets of circumstances.

Separate secure facilities (if, by this, you mean jails?) are safer for women where men are excluded, particularly men who are rapists or guilty of other sex offences.

'Unisex' changing rooms would make a lot of women feel unsafe, largely because the sort of man who would insist on a right to be in there is unlikely to be the the sort who would seem unthreatening or in anyway sympathetic to the feelings of women.

It was meant to be "yet" instead of yes.

I accept what makes people feel safe or unsafe and their reasons don't matter.

If these badges help trans people feel safe, I believe them, they have their reasons.

I hate communal changing rooms or bathrooms and dont feel safe in them, I prefer seperate facilities. Baring in mind I've been abused by women, that probably explains my fears.

Young women giggling at my body after I just had a baby in a communal changing room.

Having IBS, cubicles in a shared bathroom are a nightmare for me.

My grandmother allowed me to be sexually abused by her husband as a child so I don't trust all women in shared "safe spaces".

I don't automatically feel safe around women.

So seperate facilities make me feel safe and I also have my reasons for needing/wanting them. No one needs to understand that but there should be options so everyone can feel safe and that includes women and trans women.

Well you never know Chewbacca events seem to be moving that way!!

trisher

But why is it OK for you to deny them the pronoun they choose Rosie51. If someone used the wrong pronoun about you I assume you wouldn't be happy, but they are just epected to put up with it?

@trisher how dare you?!! I've been occupied all evening but this is the lowest of the low! I have NEVER denied anyone their preferred pronouns but you just can't help yourself can you? Prepared to lie and libel just about anyone. If you ever make such an accusation against me again it won't be GN censorship you'll have to worry about, so be very sure what allegations you're making. My contempt for you can barely go higher. Perhaps you'd like to quote where I've denied anyone their preferred pronouns or maybe you'd finally have the humility to sincerely apologise!!!!!

Also, as mentioned but not responded to on the last trans thread, several of us have 'unisex' names, and are 'misgendered' on a regular basis, without getting upset about it.

Whilst I understand that there is a difference between someone secure in their gender and someone who identifies out of their sex, and also that it is different when a mistake is made on email as opposed to in a face to face situation, I still feel that it is a huge assumption to say that others will be 'unhappy' when they are misgendered.

To back up Rosie, and to make this point yet again, many of us on these threads have made it clear that we do use people's preferred pronouns when we know them. Why wouldn't we? As we keep saying, we are not transphobic.

The point is not whether we want to use particular pronouns, but that it is very rarely necessary to use a pronoun other than 'you' when addressing someone, so this is, as far as I can see, an empty gesture that seems to be an attempt to position M&S as having a 'finger on the pulse'. I think, however, to mix my metaphors, that it will backfire, as the tide is turning.

The point is not whether we want to use particular pronouns, but that it is very rarely necessary to use a pronoun other than 'you' when addressing someone, so this is, as far as I can see, an empty gesture that seems to be an attempt to position M&S as having a 'finger on the pulse'. I think, however, to mix my metaphors, that it will backfire, as the tide is turning.

Thank God, I thought it was just me. I have never addressed anyone as she/her/hers or he/him/his. Apparently this is evidence of fully paid up membership of a bigoted group. So if any staff member of M&S should ever refer to me as she/her just because I present as female I should be able to demand their sacking or at the very least re-education....... yeah I bet that would go down well ......

I think Gwyneth raised a very good point too. How will M&S (and others who decide to follow suit) address their customers now? Sir? Madam? When the shop assistant in John Lewis asked me "Would you like your receipt putting in the bag Madam?" should I have accused her of being transphobic? And am I transphobic by assuming that she was a "she"?

Chewbacca

I think Gwyneth raised a very good point too. How will M&S (and others who decide to follow suit) address their customers now? Sir? Madam? When the shop assistant in John Lewis asked me "Would you like your receipt putting in the bag Madam?" should I have accused her of being transphobic? And am I transphobic by assuming that she was a "she"?

What a poisoned chalice they've just drunk from........... fun for all

I do struggle at times to remember that one of my teenage grandchildren is a 'they/them' - and I must say they always put up with great good humour when I get it wrong. I am getting better as time progresses and have apologised to them for my often mistakes by crocheting them a headband in blue/pink/white which denotes non-binary.

Cannot see any problem with any of this, in fact I would rather see youngsters as non-binary rather than tiny little girls made-up and dressed as Princesses, etc.

As for M&S - think in the great scheme of things going on in the world at the moment, such badges are not something which I can really get worked up about.

I will not be around over the next thirty-fifty years, but do think that by that time, future generations will be as bewildered about thjis times attitude to bi-sexual, non-binary, etc as our generation is to how people like Alan Turing were treated back in the 50's.

Apologies if this has been said before, but an article on this in today’s Times says that the pronouns will not be compulsory.

Franbern I agree that in time this will no longer be an issue. My grandchildren accept that people are all different. When I was young in the 50s/60s intolerance of anyone who wasn't what they called "normal" was rife and life was hell for those people.
My mum's friend's son was dragged onto wasteland and beaten to death because he was gay.
I hope that everyone will be accepted as just people whatever they identify as in times to come.

Never mind all this ,what M and S desperately need is a few new fashion buyers that aren’t old fashioned frumps. I used to buy a fair bit from them online but now the sizes are weird, the cuts are nasty and ill fitting and the stuff looks like it is designed for old school marms. It isn’t cheap, either.