Neopronouns

Oh and I hope you are taking part in as many consultations as possible on how best to engage parents Jane, come on, get your finger out.

I've done my bit in the past and that also attracted comments off complete strangers...

Galaxy

MN will be fine. Gender critical belief is protected under law so there are legal protections available in terms of their ability to discuss the subject.

I'm sure. Their decisions to delete MN members who don't adhere to GC beliefs isn't exactly open to debate though. Certainly isn't equality.

It wasn't a very thought out argument galaxy in regards to your friend

In regards to children, I would hope those teaching them aren't letting their political opinions influence a child's education

I would never do that

https://www.gransnet.com/uploads/talk/202301/medium-172669-screenshot-20230121-134715-whatsapp.jpg https://www.gransnet.com/uploads/talk/202301/medium-697650-screenshot-20230121-134715-whatsapp.jpg

Well there you have it, eldest AC, A* at English A level and studying English at University

I don't know how I created such an intelligent child when I cannot successfully share a single screenshot

Galaxy

No I was widening the discussion about people with disabilities and their families in the case of children, having to educate everyone. It's quite a delicate subject for some. If you look at the boards on MN relating to disabilities you will see some parents being very forthright about it

Thats. funny because you criticised my post about children before
The people responsible for helping her to understand. What on earth are you talking about. Shes an adult woman, with a career etc she doesnt need anyone to help her understand.

Could it be that when asked questions about your "friend" that you are unable to answer you then choose to widen the discussion.
The questions of course remain
Why wouldn't you simply tell your autistic friend to ask which pronoun someone prefers? (Because this would undoubtedly ease her anxiety)
And why wouldn't you urge her to share the reason for her difficulties- her autism.? (which would help everyone understand her difficulties)

Ilovecheese

VioletSky

glorianny yes it's only a small drop in a complicated language

Gagajo a lot of mainstream platforms have removed groups and forums where people were actively discriminating, mumsnet has much fewer community guidelines but that's probably subject to change at some point

These zealots really are policing what women are allowed to talk about. Where is this leading?

To Hell in a handcart, if you ask me.

In what way is a discussion 'discriminatory'? Doesn't discrimination have to be based on an action? The MN thread is about someone's child (I think he is a teenager) struggling with exams because his autism and dyslexia make following counter-intuitive or confusing descriptions of situations involving individuals and groups all using the same pronouns, or being referred to by ones that are not indicative of their sex. How is that hate speech, discrimination (other than against the boy himself) or in need of tightened forum rules?

VioletSky

Lucca

Yes they do. I would listen to a valid argumeng but you basically just said "you are wrong"

galaxy

Blimey

Because I can teach 4 year olds all their sounds and all about digraphs and split digraphs and trigraphs while simultaneously teaching them all the ways phonics is absolutely illogical nonsense

There is a whole long list of words that cannot be sounded out at all and must be learned by sight.

Then there are sounds that sound completely different to each other. Examples:

th. Thistle and Then
oo. Look and food

There are many more, the entirety of which is completely illogical and ridiculous but that's literally the first step before we get anywhere near adverbials and extended noun phrases and they all get it, autistic children included unless they are non verbal.

Pronouns in gender neutral form or in the singular or plural do not seem to compare.

I'd explain to that child that, they are like names and nicknames which are also individual, some people prefer different pronouns and it might be difficult to remember or we might make mistakes but that's OK. Which is absolutely nothing to do with teaching anything about LGBTQ people

I tried a valid argument but to no avail.

Well when you take something relatively small like:

Someone saying they won't use certain pronouns because they believe them to be plural rather than singular... despite actually using those pronouns themselves in the singular

It actually becomes really easy to see how people's beliefs twist and tarnish something small and normal that does not involve trans people at all into a bigger issue that is (in their own heads) the fault of trans people

So.. yes, unmoderated discussion of gender critical issues can turn to discrimination and hate speech when actual issues present themselves

When that happens, people can bring literal legal implications to forums like demanding they reveal the contact information of their users in order to prosecute users for discrimination or hate speech.. which has actually already happened

Forums generally don't want any part of that

Lucca

We have non gender specific pronouns so other languages having them would make it easier I would have thought not harder

Learning a language with no gender specific pronouns even easier

The first story I read that used "they" for its main character caused me lots of problems. I really had to think about it and sometimes felt a bit lost. But like many skills it improved with practice.
So perhaps all that is required in the case of the child is more experience of literature which uses the devices he struggles with.

At 46, it's either always been usual for me or just happened naturally It's obviously crept into everyone else's language as the first example is in the OP and there are many more.

The first example I could find was Shakespeare "Everybody has their failings" and the fact that he was told he should have used "his". I thought that a gender neutral pronoun once being "he or his" was very interesting. Very sexist, it almost assumes the reader or listener male as if women wouldn't trouble themselves with something

Glorianny

The first story I read that used "they" for its main character caused me lots of problems. I really had to think about it and sometimes felt a bit lost. But like many skills it improved with practice.
So perhaps all that is required in the case of the child is more experience of literature which uses the devices he struggles with.

Yes, and if the case in point were A level literature or something I'd absolutely agree.

But I get the impression that it was something like 'Ali, Bobby Chris and Danny each have an equal share of £100 that was earned from gardening. Danny already has £20 leftover from their birthday. If Ali gives all of their share to Bobby, who gives half of it to Chris, who then gives a third of their money to Danny, how much does Danny have to spend? If Chris buys all the girls a present with their share of the money, what would each present cost?

Obviously I don't know the subject being examined, and I've made that up off the top of my head, so it might not work logically. I have no idea of the answer, and I don't care, so no 'Gotcha's please . It's the use of gender-neutral names and plural pronouns that makes it difficult to follow. I doubt that anything real would be anything like as badly worded as this, as it was deliberately made incomprehensible, (although who knows?), but the principle stands.

It is confusing for neurotypical people to follow mangled pronouns, and deliberately using gender-neutral names in an attempt to be 'inclusive' confuses things further. For people with particular types of neurodiversity (and I would have thought it was obvious that not all are the same) I can see how tricky it might be to make even a neater version of my question sense.

Thou could stop using "mangled" pronouns if thou wish doodledog

But I hereby reserve the right to point it out when you do it for the rest of eternity

And I'm from a generation who still uses "you" plural and has to change it because otherwise some may take it personally lol

As I say MN will be just fine.
Justine has balls of steel in my view. Always has done.

Cool

Did you read what Gagajo said?

Echo Chambers have never been for me

You dont need to go on it. Although technically you are on it now. GN being an offshoot of MN.

I’m not altering my vocabulary to suit a tiny number of vociferous people.
If you call yourself “we” I’ll assume you’re royalty or have worms.

I'm aware

VioletSky

Thou could stop using "mangled" pronouns if thou wish doodledog

But I hereby reserve the right to point it out when you do it for the rest of eternity

I've never denied thee (or wished to deny thee) that right, VS. Nor do I feel the need to keep telling thee how to live thy life.

I don't usually mangle pronouns, unless I'm being careless. We shouldn't be teaching children careless habits, even if we slip into them ourselves.

I use 'their' as plural and when the sex of the person to whom the pronoun is attached is unknown or not applicable (eg to an animal). I use contemporary English as a rule, not being from a generation or geographical region that uses archaic ones, but can mix and match to suit the register I'm using. I can't remember the last time I used an archaic register (probably in an English exam back in the day, when writing about the shift in the language from a strongly to a weakly inflected one leading to a shift in pronouns in general usage), but whatever.

As usual though, you have picked up on a tiny and unimportant part of a post and ignored the hard bit. Can you make sense of the hypothetical question I posed? If not (and I wouldn't blame you), can you see how 'Alison, Basil Caroline and Daniel each have an equal share of £100 that was earned from gardening. Daniel already has £20 leftover from his birthday. If Alison gives all of her share to Bobby, who gives half of it to Caroline, who then gives a third of her money to Daniel, how much does Daniel have to spend? If Caroline buys all the girls a present with her share of the money, what would each present cost?' would be easier (to follow if not to calculate)? Why use the former and not the latter?

Galaxy

As I say MN will be just fine.
Justine has balls of steel in my view. Always has done.

Agreed, Galaxy. When all this is over (which I have to believe will happen sooner rather than later) she will get a medal for services to women.

Well, I laughed

She has always been brave way before this issue.
What a crawler I am