Neopronouns

Rosie51 That's the sort of thing I mean. You just called me cruel and insensitive and egotistical and inexperienced and said you will discount my views...

Despite my agreeing with you that some children cannot learn this and I wouldn't expect anyone to be offended by that but I would expect parents and caregivers to educate where possible on how to navigate social circles which is for the benefit of the child no one else

I mean, thanks and everything for proving my point about how people on these threads deliberately look for reasons to have a go on a personal level but... meh

It's just uncalled for

Imma flounce and wait to see if things get back on track or as I like to call it, exercising boundaries and self respect for how I spend my time

That way I won't have to read the passive aggressive agreements

Luckily I work with children (i do specialise in SEN and emotional support), and I am an incredibly patient person so this won't bother me for longer than it takes to type this reply

And... I feel better

Bringing what up VS?

I sympathise. When I read the post on MN, I thought it was a valid point, and one I hadn’t considered before. It would have been good to have a proper discussion about it, rather than personal slurs and attacks. It seems to me another case where the wishes of the trans lobbyists are put ahead of the needs of others.

Ah, and there we have it! A cry of outrage that someone is disagreeing and an accusation that it was a personal attack.

This is exactly why I am pointing personal nastiness out when it happens - I have long said that personal slurs come from the trans lobby, not the fact-based side of the debate, as I am sick of the implication that they are being bullied.

VioletSky

Rosie51 That's the sort of thing I mean. You just called me cruel and insensitive and egotistical and inexperienced and said you will discount my views...

Despite my agreeing with you that some children cannot learn this and I wouldn't expect anyone to be offended by that but I would expect parents and caregivers to educate where possible on how to navigate social circles which is for the benefit of the child no one else

I mean, thanks and everything for proving my point about how people on these threads deliberately look for reasons to have a go on a personal level but... meh

It's just uncalled for

Imma flounce and wait to see if things get back on track or as I like to call it, exercising boundaries and self respect for how I spend my time

That way I won't have to read the passive aggressive agreements

Luckily I work with children (i do specialise in SEN and emotional support), and I am an incredibly patient person so this won't bother me for longer than it takes to type this reply

And... I feel better

I didn't see where you said agreeing with you that some children cannot learn this

I didn't call you egotistical, I called people whose indignation at being 'misgendered' meant more to them than a vulnerable person's wellbeing egotistical.

Unless you work in a highly specialised unit such as my grandson attends, then you are 'inexperienced' in that level of 'disability'. I use the word 'disability' since he gets disability benefits. Working in a school that can accommodate some neurodiverse pupils is not on any level like a highly specialised unit, and I'm surprised that you would equate your experience as being equal?

And I'm so pleased for you that I am an incredibly patient person so this won't bother me for longer than it takes to type this reply and just wish that was true for my grandson who will wake up tomorrow with the same difficulties he took with him to bed tonight. Luckily he has incredibly patient teachers and TAs who accept him for himself, put his feelings above their own, and are doing their very best to help him face the world he's forced to live in.

Something that just popped into my head I want to share because it matters to me

When my daughter asked someone what was on their face and can she touch it, he said "of course you can" and smiled at her then explained what it was

I would wish the world was populated by people like that, I really would.

But I cannot rely on the rest of the human race to be as kind and understanding to my daughter so I teach her how to engage with others politely. I cannot rely on the rest of the human race to know she is autistic as she doesn't wear a sign so I teach her how to to get her needs met without putting herself in dangerous situations in a world the contains a scary ampunt of nasty angry people.

Good people like the one with the large mole she found fascinating exist in every demographic including trans people and I would love to hold everyone to that standard...

Yet I won't be here forever and I can't protect her forever and I do my absolute best to help her engage with the world and cope with her stims from being overstimulated and teach her to create safe spaces and how to find a changing room or a toilet to decompress in because I can't always burrow into a clothing rack with her.

And it's all for her benefit, not trans people's or people she observes are fat or have a big nose or really fascinating moles

Just hers

OK goodnight those who read that and understood me for what I was saying all along

^However this is not a thread about trans people anyway.

Well, who is it that wants neopronouns?
Isn't it people under the trans umbrella?

However this is not a thread about trans people anyway. was a quote from an earlier post .

VioletSky

Something that just popped into my head I want to share because it matters to me

When my daughter asked someone what was on their face and can she touch it, he said "of course you can" and smiled at her then explained what it was

I would wish the world was populated by people like that, I really would.

But I cannot rely on the rest of the human race to be as kind and understanding to my daughter so I teach her how to engage with others politely. I cannot rely on the rest of the human race to know she is autistic as she doesn't wear a sign so I teach her how to to get her needs met without putting herself in dangerous situations in a world the contains a scary ampunt of nasty angry people.

Good people like the one with the large mole she found fascinating exist in every demographic including trans people and I would love to hold everyone to that standard...

Yet I won't be here forever and I can't protect her forever and I do my absolute best to help her engage with the world and cope with her stims from being overstimulated and teach her to create safe spaces and how to find a changing room or a toilet to decompress in because I can't always burrow into a clothing rack with her.

And it's all for her benefit, not trans people's or people she observes are fat or have a big nose or really fascinating moles

Just hers

OK goodnight those who read that and understood me for what I was saying all along

My grandson's uncle who is also on the spectrum, but to a much lesser degree, has learned many of the social 'mores' which is why I know that my grandson never will.
I would have thought VS that if your daughter is so affected by her autism you'd have been the first to have total sympathy with the families of those with much greater problems (especially those with severe co-morbidities) who know these are unattainable for their relatives.

VS again VS?

FarNorth

^However this is not a thread about trans people anyway.

Well, who is it that wants neopronouns?
Isn't it people under the trans umbrella?

It's actually mostly non-binary people, who are simply saying it's none of your business and it simply shouldn't matter to you what gender they are so they choose to use "they".
Nothing to do with trans people really
And something that should be welcomed by anyone choosing to challenge gender norms.

Neurodivergent people vary in so many ways. Linking a particular problem to any difficulties in life is never helpful. It basically focusses on the condition and not the individual.
Just as there are autistic people who find socialising difficult there are those who don't recognise normal social boundaries and over step them (Listen to Henry Normal about his son Johnnie). So some children may find pronouns difficult and may need help. Denying them that help because of your personal prejudices is just as damaging as any other restrictions you place upon them.

They will meet people who don't want to be referred to as him or her. That's the reality. The earlier they are introduced to the idea and the more positive help they receive to understand the it the more likely they are to adjust.

And yes I do understand that some people may not understand or adjust, that has to be lived with like all the other problems of autism, including non-verbal people. But ignoring or not believing in non-binary people isn't going to make them go away.

Nobody is ignoring them. We hold different beliefs about gender that's all. And we arent going to go away either

This is interesting-
In his book “What’s Your Pronoun?” Dennis Baron, an English professor at the University of Illinois, describes a series of attempts to create a nonbinary pronoun. (In 1808, the poet Samuel Taylor Coleridge suggested “it,” which flopped; it is now beginning to have a small moment in the sun.) In all, Mr. Baron identified more than 200 gender-neutral pronouns proposed between the 19th century and the 1970s

www.nytimes.com/2021/04/08/style/neopronouns-nonbinary-explainer.html

Galaxy

Nobody is ignoring them. We hold different beliefs about gender that's all. And we arent going to go away either

So why do you feel you have to know someone's gender? Why can't they be non-binary? How does that conflict with your beliefs?

Galaxy

Nobody is ignoring them. We hold different beliefs about gender that's all. And we arent going to go away either

This. 😀

They can believe what they like . Their sex will remain the same, and the oppression women experience wont change because they label themselves non binary for example.
I am not interested in anyones gender.

I dont mean that in a hostile way I just mean in the same way I am not that interested in others religious beliefs on a day to day basis.

But surely it is hostile to insist someone must behave the way you want them to and not the way they wish to. As for gender you only assume you know because you have been told that someone is a certain gender. If they refuse to tell you what right have you to insist.
If we want a religious analogy it's a bit like me saying I'm an atheist and you saying I have to believe in God because you do, and I can chose between Christianity and Islam, but I have to be one or the other.

I am not telling anyone to behave in a certain way. You want me to say certain words. It's like asking an atheist to say the lords prayer every day. I am not interested in anyones gender as I have already said.

If we want a religious analogy it's a bit like me saying I'm an atheist and you saying I have to believe in God because you do, and I can chose between Christianity and Islam, but I have to be one or the other.

I have just accidentally deleted a longer reply, but will just say that this analogy does not allow for the fact that there are other religions, and that there is an Atheist option too, so doesn't hold up as a comparison.

Are you going to be hostile and insist that we all agree that sex is less important than gender, or that people have a choice in which sex they want to be, just because you believe it?

Doodledog

*If we want a religious analogy it's a bit like me saying I'm an atheist and you saying I have to believe in God because you do, and I can chose between Christianity and Islam, but I have to be one or the other.*

I have just accidentally deleted a longer reply, but will just say that this analogy does not allow for the fact that there are other religions, and that there is an Atheist option too, so doesn't hold up as a comparison.

Are you going to be hostile and insist that we all agree that sex is less important than gender, or that people have a choice in which sex they want to be, just because you believe it?

As I have said before the number of people I meet whose sex I actually have seen real evidence of is tiny, so in everyday life of course sex is less important than gender.

In any case none of this is important when looking at the case for non-binary identities.
I agree about religion not being relevant but then I didn't bring religion into the discussion.

No one has yet explained to me why they have the right to refuse to recognise non-binary identities apart from the fact that they don't believe in them. And as belief has been at the basis of every discriminatory act or regime in history it isn't something I can agree with.

You are quite entitled to believe what you wish, you are not entitle to use that belief to limit or place restrictions on anyone else's life, especially restrictions on their personal identity which causes no harm to anyone else.

In what way am I placing restrictions on someone if I believe that you cant change sex.

I've never met a religious person who ever told me if I didn't follow their beliefs I could go to hell. I've only read about those people.

But now GC feminists seem to be saying if people don't follow their beliefs they can go to hell.

Which then leads to it being some sort of divinity to be absolutely rude and abnoxious to a huge amount of people just trying to live life happily as good people and anyone defending their right to live life happily as good people.

So really it's not comparable to religion as a whole but more comparable to a religious cult

People who are able to objectively be nasty to others or stand back and enable it because another does not subscribe to their beliefs and is therefore "less" are nothing short of abusive

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Galaxy

In what way am I placing restrictions on someone if I believe that you cant change sex.

But no one is talking about changing sex. Just that you have no right to know what sex or gender they are, Which if you look at it logically is pretty much putting into practice the belief that gender is a restrictive practice that needs to be ignored. If someone is non-binary all your preconceptions of male and/or female behaviour are challenged.