Neopronouns

Glorianny

FarNorth

^However this is not a thread about trans people anyway.

Well, who is it that wants neopronouns?
Isn't it people under the trans umbrella?

It's actually mostly non-binary people, who are simply saying it's none of your business and it simply shouldn't matter to you what gender they are so they choose to use "they".
Nothing to do with trans people really
And something that should be welcomed by anyone choosing to challenge gender norms.

You really should educate Stonewall and other trans organisations because they most definitely include non-binary under the trans 'umbrella'.

www.stonewall.org.uk/what-does-trans-mean

My GD is non binary and uses ‘they ‘. To begin with this caused a lot of confusion as we never knew whether ‘their’ parents were referring to ‘them’ alone or ‘them’ and ‘their ‘ sister.

No of course they arent. The non binary person of the female sex will experience oppression because of their female sex, they will be impacted by maternity policies etc, non binary people of the Male sex will be more likely to commit particular crimes, not have to take time off work for pregnancy etc. Do you mean if female people have short hair and wear trousers my preconceptions will be challenged, because I have never believed in those stereotypes.

Who are you calling abusive VS.

Rosie51

Glorianny

FarNorth

^However this is not a thread about trans people anyway.

Well, who is it that wants neopronouns?
Isn't it people under the trans umbrella?

It's actually mostly non-binary people, who are simply saying it's none of your business and it simply shouldn't matter to you what gender they are so they choose to use "they".
Nothing to do with trans people really
And something that should be welcomed by anyone choosing to challenge gender norms.

You really should educate Stonewall and other trans organisations because they most definitely include non-binary under the trans 'umbrella'.

www.stonewall.org.uk/what-does-trans-mean

Honestly some people either don't have basic English skills or can only read things and apply bias
What it says on Stonewall

Trans is an umbrella term to describe people whose gender is not the same as, or does not sit comfortably with, the sex they were assigned at birth.
Trans people may describe themselves using one or more of a wide variety of terms, including (but not limited to) transgender, non-binary, or genderqueer.

That means that trans people may use the term non-binary. It does not mean that all non-binary people are trans or that all non-binary people want to be identified with trans people.

Does that help Rosie51?

Galaxy

No of course they arent. The non binary person of the female sex will experience oppression because of their female sex, they will be impacted by maternity policies etc, non binary people of the Male sex will be more likely to commit particular crimes, not have to take time off work for pregnancy etc. Do you mean if female people have short hair and wear trousers my preconceptions will be challenged, because I have never believed in those stereotypes.

So what you are actually saying is that because someone may at some point require medical services or choose to benefit from a service that depends upon their sex you must be able to know their gender. Why?

I mean that regardless of how someone dresses or presents if they choose to say they are non-binary you should permit them to say so and legally recognise their right to do so.

They can say what they like as can I.
I dont know how many times I have to say I am not interested in gender, other than seeing it as a range of oppressive stereotypes.

How would I stop them saying they were non binary. How would they stop me saying gender is a concept imposed by society that damages both women and men

Galaxy

How would I stop them saying they were non binary? How would they stop me saying gender is a concept imposed by society that damages both women and men?
You can say you are non binary, or female or male, you can be TW or TM, but if you ever need treatment specific to your natal sex, that is what will matter, unless of course you are happy to be refused treatment for you prostate problems because you refuse to admit you are male.

So what you are actually saying is that because someone may at some point require medical services or choose to benefit from a service that depends upon their sex you must be able to know their gender. Why?

I'm not speaking for Galaxy, but for myself I don't want to know their gender. I couldn't care less. There are times when I want to know their sex, (such as if they are male and hanging about in a changing room where teenage girls are naked), but the reason why I object to the insistence that people declare pronouns on emails and/or screens is that I am not remotely interested in how people 'identify'. That is up to them, but they shouldn't be able to force me or anyone else to declare ours, or to collude in their fantasies.

To both Galaxy and Doodledog All they want is for you to accept that they choose to be non-binary ,that they don't think you have a right to force them to declare as "him" or "her" and accept "they" as their pronoun in every day life. Nothing to do with services or circumstances where their sex may be need to be known. Just pronouns in everyday life.

Quite how that conflicts with your beliefs, or forces you to collude with fantasies I don't know. It's quite simple.
And no one is forcing anyone to declare their own pronoun
They are asking that you respect theirs.

Of course the interesting question is if you believe you have no obligation to respect their views how on earth can you expect them to respect yours?

I am not saying that I don't respect anyone's views 🙄

What I am saying (for the umpteenth time) is that I don't intend to declare a pronoun, and also for the umpteenth time, however much you tell me that no-one is forcing anyone to declare their own pronoun, people are expected to do so in some workplaces. the fact that this has never applied to you is irrelevant - It Happens.

I am not asking anyone to do anything. I don't care whether someone I'm emailing or Zooming is male or female, or whether they see themselves as neither. I just wasn't to communicate with them. I wouldn't be using pronouns in those circumstances - the only time I would do so would be in their absence, so they wouldn't hear.

Any conflict with my beliefs comes from 'captured' workplaces who ask everyone to comply with a request to declare so-called 'gender' pronouns. I do not want to do this, and I don't place anyone else under an 'obligation' to do so either, so your interesting question really doesn't apply.

Doodledog

I am not saying that I don't respect anyone's views 🙄

What I am saying (for the umpteenth time) is that I don't intend to declare a pronoun, and also for the umpteenth time, however much you tell me that no-one is forcing anyone to declare their own pronoun, people are expected to do so in some workplaces. the fact that this has never applied to you is irrelevant - It Happens.

I am not asking anyone to do anything. I don't care whether someone I'm emailing or Zooming is male or female, or whether they see themselves as neither. I just wasn't to communicate with them. I wouldn't be using pronouns in those circumstances - the only time I would do so would be in their absence, so they wouldn't hear.

Any conflict with my beliefs comes from 'captured' workplaces who ask everyone to comply with a request to declare so-called 'gender' pronouns. I do not want to do this, and I don't place anyone else under an 'obligation' to do so either, so your interesting question really doesn't apply.

It's so interesting that you appear to find it impossible to simply answer the question and instead bring up a lot of quite frankly irrelevancies about people forcing you to do something . Combine that with your previous post about naked teenage girls in changing rooms and we have complete obfuscation.
Possibly because there really isn't a logical reason for not accepting non-binary people and their pronoun "they"

I'm not obfuscating (and that's rich, coming from you!).

the question was if you believe you have no obligation to respect their views how on earth can you expect them to respect yours?

And my answer is that I don't expect anything of anyone. I simply prefer not to declare a pronoun. What other people do is up to them.

Compelled speech is not something I believe in. People can call themselves anything they like obviously, I can call myself Queen Galaxy but I cant compel people to use that title when I am not around (which is mostly when pronouns are used).
And you actually have no idea if it's no harm, none at all. No harm has been said at every step of the way and has been wrong each time, wrong about puberty blockers, wrong about social affirmation for young people, wrong about the tavistock, so sorry but I dont know that I am going to trust random people when it comes to 'no harm' for young people in particular.

Well said, Galaxy.

Galaxy

Compelled speech is not something I believe in. People can call themselves anything they like obviously, I can call myself Queen Galaxy but I cant compel people to use that title when I am not around (which is mostly when pronouns are used).
And you actually have no idea if it's no harm, none at all. No harm has been said at every step of the way and has been wrong each time, wrong about puberty blockers, wrong about social affirmation for young people, wrong about the tavistock, so sorry but I dont know that I am going to trust random people when it comes to 'no harm' for young people in particular.

Nothing to do with puberty blockers, nothing to do with social affirmation, nothing to do with Tavistock.
I'm finding it hilarious that all of these things have to be dredged up to justify the fact that you simply refuse to acknowledge or recognise someone's right to describe themselves as non-binary and ask you to use the pronoun "they" about them.
Of course they aren't compelling you. You on the other hand seem to be telling them they can't be who they want to be

I wonder if someone could bring in global warming as a reason not to use non-binary or the pronoun "they" I'm sure it could be included with a bit of effort.

Well said Galaxy

Glorianny, your use of use of obfuscation gentrification, insinuation . . . 🤣🤣🤣

Can you show anything that says anyone on here has said that they want to compel non-binary people to do anything at all?

Doodledog

Can you show anything that says anyone on here has said that they want to compel non-binary people to do anything at all?

I don't think I used the word "compel" I did say you were telling them that they can't be who they want to be.
That's slightly different.
But trying to twist out of it again.
If you won't accept non-binary as a designation, if you won't use the pronoun "they" you are insisting they become either her or him. Is that compelling?

I don't think I used the word "compel" I did say you were telling them that they can't be who they want to be.
Where did DD tell anyone they can’t be who they want to be. Or is that another of your obfuscatory claims that didn’t actually happen?

Mollygo

^I don't think I used the word "compel" I did say you were telling them that they can't be who they want to be.^
Where did DD tell anyone they can’t be who they want to be. Or is that another of your obfuscatory claims that didn’t actually happen?

Perhaps you should read the rest of that sentence Molllygo then comment.

Sorry rest of that post!

I am not compelling them to do anything, you are trying to compel me to use certain words. The history of people saying 'theres no harm' is very relevant, as in pretty much every previous discussion, the words 'no harm' were used, and those words were incorrect.