Endometriosis charity appoints trans woman as the new head of the organisation.

Let's be correct. CS competed as a woman, was permitted to continue competing as a woman after having a genital inspection and would still be competing as a woman had she agreed to take medication to reduce her testosterone levels. The judgement by the European court was given to her as a woman. The only place I have ever seen her referred to as a man is on GN.

Which as I said indicates levels of discrimination which are unacceptable.

I have no idea why sports bodies use the tests they do Rosie51.But as far as CS goes they have never judged her as male. They ruled on her testosterone level and required her to reduce it. In spite of the fact that the medication made her ill and with absolutely no scientific evidence that natural testosterone gives any advantage. No one has ever designated her as male. Apart from you.

Sorry everyone knows the condition CS has is only experienced by Males. This was not in the public arena for a long time but then was detailed in one of the rulings as far as I can remember.

Oh and natural testerone impacts everything from muscle mass to strength. We segregate sport by sex on the whole and most sporting bodies are returning to that. Mostly out of fear of litigation I would assume.

Galaxy

Sorry everyone knows the condition CS has is only experienced by Males. This was not in the public arena for a long time but then was detailed in one of the rulings as far as I can remember.

Would you like to find a link to that because it is manifestly untrue or the EU court ruling could not and would not apply.

Galaxy

Oh and natural testerone impacts everything from muscle mass to strength. We segregate sport by sex on the whole and most sporting bodies are returning to that. Mostly out of fear of litigation I would assume.

Another mistake. The only research done on natural testosterone and sports found that levels in male and female athletes tended to overlap with some women having high levels and some men low levels.
. testosterone values show a complete overlap between men and women although the mean values differ. There were 74 of 446 (16Á5%) men with a serum testosterone below 8Á4 nmol/l, the lower limit of the normal reference range. 6 There were 32 of 234 (13Á7%) women with a testosterone level > 2Á7 nmol/l, the upper limit of the normal reference range 6 (Fig. 1). There is no significant difference in either LH or FSH between those with low or normal testosterone levels. There was only one athlete with a raised testosterone (9Á6 nmol/l) who had a suppressed LH (0Á1 U/l), indicating the possibility of misuse of testosterone; all other values of LH in those with raised testosterone were within

When you go through Male puberty it impacts on strength muscle mass etc. There are numerous studies showing this, you are free to look them up. Either we need to segregate by sex or we dont. We cant possibly segregate on a range of stereotypes.
There have been numerous rulings with regard to males in females sports which were manifestly unfair this did not stop the sporting bodies making those rulings. As you point out yourself there have been numerous rulings within sport that have negatively impacted biological females.

It was detailed in the press release from the CAS arbitration on the case. I would have to look up the date.

Always your cry of. she is the wrong sort of woman
You are the only one Glorianny who persistently mentions the wrong sort of women.
A woman is an adult human female. Where have you seen people post that an AHF is the wrong sort of woman.
Transwomen are exactly what it says-transwomen. They can’t be the wrong sort of woman because they are not AHF.

Many same sex couples have children and happy family lives.

Where has that been denied? Evidence?

And since you seem to have missed it , deliberately (as in your cry of “I don’t read your posts”) or accidentally 🤣🤣

I’ll remind you.

Re same sex couples?
Same sex couples are two people who want relationships with people of the same sex.
Male with male.
Female with female.
TW with TW or TM with TM can be same sex couples in the same way.
Anything else is heterosexual.

If a couple, same sex or heterosexual, are happy with whichever combination they are living in, no issue.

If one half is demanding to be accepted as the having changed sex as in the case of TW claiming they are lesbian and saying that lesbians who do not accept them as such are transphobic that is wrong.

They are certainly the ones peddling hatred. Though it’s hatred of females, not trans.

Although maybe you don’t think so Glorianny?

Glorianny I accept that not having a scientific background may be influencing your lack of knowledge about the effects of testosterone. During puberty people with functioning testes ie males produce increased levels of testosterone. This prompts the growth of longer denser bones, an increase in heart size and lung capacity. Muscle mass also responds to this increased level, which is why on average men are taller, stronger, faster and a different body shape to females. People with a dsd that includes functioning internal testes, even though their external genitalia may be ambiguous leading in olden times to being wrongly sexed, will go through male puberty with all its permanent advantages. Lowering testosterone levels in male bodies does not convert them into female bodies that have not benefitted from a male puberty.
Incidentally the ECHR decision was 4 for 3 against so hardly a resounding agreement, and in fact the decision is likely to be referred higher up to the ECHR grand chamber for a final and definitive decision. If you care to research the DSD Caster Semenya (which I detailed earlier) has you will have to agree it's one that only affects males. Perhaps you'd believe Lord Robert Winston, you surely don't believe your knowledge outweighs his on the subject of biology? Nobody can change sex it's absolutely immutable.

Rosie51

Glorianny I accept that not having a scientific background may be influencing your lack of knowledge about the effects of testosterone. During puberty people with functioning testes ie males produce increased levels of testosterone. This prompts the growth of longer denser bones, an increase in heart size and lung capacity. Muscle mass also responds to this increased level, which is why on average men are taller, stronger, faster and a different body shape to females. People with a dsd that includes functioning internal testes, even though their external genitalia may be ambiguous leading in olden times to being wrongly sexed, will go through male puberty with all its permanent advantages. Lowering testosterone levels in male bodies does not convert them into female bodies that have not benefitted from a male puberty.
Incidentally the ECHR decision was 4 for 3 against so hardly a resounding agreement, and in fact the decision is likely to be referred higher up to the ECHR grand chamber for a final and definitive decision. If you care to research the DSD Caster Semenya (which I detailed earlier) has you will have to agree it's one that only affects males. Perhaps you'd believe Lord Robert Winston, you surely don't believe your knowledge outweighs his on the subject of biology? Nobody can change sex it's absolutely immutable.

No but nor do I make myself judge and jury over the gender of someone who has always and still does identify as a woman. Who passed numerous tests which were intrusive and demeaning and would have been permitted to compete had she agreed to accept medical intervention.
Nor do I post inferences about the fact that her wife has given birth to two children.
What gives you the right to decide CS is not a woman when so many have judged she is?
That's the problem with all these posts. Most of the judgements are made without considering any one else's views but your own. I don't think Lord Robert Winston has ever posted an opinion about Caster Semenya although many have examined her and judged her a woman.

Gender has nothing to do with the right to compete in a sex class. Are you confusing sex and gender again?

On what grounds was CS 'judged a woman', and by whom? Because of her declared gender? Fair enough when it comes to day to day life, but not when it comes to competitive sport.

The deliberate conflation of sex and gender is responsible for so many of the communication problems surrounding this issue, which is, of course, (a) why it was started and (b) why it is so important to ensure that the language is not mangled further so that it is not possible to talk about women as a separate class from men/the male bodied/transpeople.

Doodledog

Gender has nothing to do with the right to compete in a sex class. Are you confusing sex and gender again?

On what grounds was CS 'judged a woman', and by whom? Because of her declared gender? Fair enough when it comes to day to day life, but not when it comes to competitive sport.

The deliberate conflation of sex and gender is responsible for so many of the communication problems surrounding this issue, which is, of course, (a) why it was started and (b) why it is so important to ensure that the language is not mangled further so that it is not possible to talk about women as a separate class from men/the male bodied/transpeople.

She was judged a woman by every test imposed by the regulating authority including genital inspection. She was only stopped from competing because she refused to take medication which she tried but found had unacceptable side effects. Other women athletes have been forced to have surgery.
foreignpolicy.com/2021/02/18/women-athletes-subjected-to-sex-testing-are-faced-with-impossible-choices-caster-semenya-world-athletics/
The diversity of women is something which should be celebrated. They should not be forced to comply to a set of preordained criteria set as always by men.

Glorianny Nor do I post inferences about the fact that her wife has given birth to two children.
What gives you the right to decide CS is not a woman when so many have judged she is?

I made no implications about the fact Caster Semenya's wife has given birth to two children. That you inferred something from my saying Caster has a happy family life is down to your own thoughts. The same sex couple remark from you was so Glorianny....do you not realise that most of us will either have friends or family in same sex relationships, many of whom have the joy of children too?
For years sex and gender were interchangeable, both meaning biological sex. For some reason 'gender' was considered 'nicer'. Caster may refer to themself as a woman, but nothing makes a biological male a biological female. Sports are performed by biological bodies, not internal feelings, so Caster should compete in the correct sex class which is male. Will you address the point about Caster having benefitted from a male puberty that cannot be undone, or are you just going to keep ignoring facts to further your disregard for the biological women who have been denied their rightful success? Why do you think it's OK for them to have been denied the success their hard work should have earned them?

Careful, Rosie. I asked that some time ago and was told the comment was worthy of the KKK.

The diversity of women is something which should be celebrated. They should not be forced to comply to a set of preordained criteria set as always by men.
Again, this is coming from you, not from anyone else on this thread. I am perfectly happy to celebrate diversity. I repeat (how many times do I have to do it?) that what I do not celebrate is the right of males to have their needs/wants put above those of women, in this case women who have trained and worked for years to achieve their success, only to have it downgraded when someone with a male body is allowed to compete against them and win.

Glorianny^The diversity of women is something which should be celebrated. They should not be forced to comply to a set of preordained criteria set as always by men.^ Sex is immutable. Sports are performed by sexed bodies, are you incapable of understanding that? Fairness dictates that people of the same sex compete against each other, otherwise why only allow certain privileged males to enter, why not any of them who'd like to? You'll destroy female sport but then maybe that's not a concern with you.
criteria set as always by men when you use men here do you mean biological males or some other category, it gets so confusing when these words have no definitive meaning?

Glorianny
^ Most of the judgements are made without considering any one else's views but your own.^
Another excellent own goal from G!🤣🤣🤣

I dont judge. I dont think it's wrong to be a man. My views have no influence on biological reality.

I've just worked out what that thudding sound is - it's the noise of heads banging against a brick wall.

So I'm wrong because I post links to judgements by various bodies, which you all seem prepared to ignore in favour of your own prejudices.
You call transwomen men
You call an intersex woman a man.
Honestly it is pure prejudice.
There is more information about the subject here theconversation.com/ten-ethical-flaws-in-the-caster-semenya-decision-on-intersex-in-sport-116448
But I don't expect you to read it. Your minds are closed.

So I'm wrong because I post which you ignore in favour of your own prejudices.

You call transwomen women, when women are AHF and transwomen are AHM, and you do that regardless of the harm some of these TW do to women and to other TW. Even worse, you’re evidently proud of doing that.

You call an intersex woman a woman?

How have you suddenly been made arbiter of what an intersex person is Glorianny?
Did you 😱 test them for make or female DNA?
Did you 😱😱 examine their genitalia?

Honestly it is pure prejudice on your part.

Smileless2012

Posting that hatred is being peddled on this thread is a vague and generalised attack on anyone who disagrees with you Glorianny and is another example of the weakness of your argument.

So, how did we get here - to the point where we are now being accused of pedalling hatred?

Those of us who believe that sex is biologically real and matters in some contexts are denounced in every way possible by either accusations of 'hatred' or, if that doesn't stick, "fear".

Further - because even the intersectional feminist will admit that there are situations where women should be allowed the sanctity of women-only spaces - we are (or Doodledog was) accused of "moaning on here" because of our inability to solve the problem that transwomen have presented us with by insisting that they be allowed to occupy these spaces.

So this is where we're at. And, it would appear, that the only way to deal with the problem, is for women to accept that TWAW and relinquish some of our rights so that they can have theirs.

A man at some point in his life, has some 'innate' sense that he cannot identify with his biological sex, and chooses to identify as a woman because that feels right. So - why is that an issue? Well, it wasn't, until he decided that his sense of himself as a woman, his perception, his feelings, his reality, were more important than my recognition of observable reality and the immutability of sex... something I should not be allowed to speak about, or debate publicly - just accept. I must accept that a man with full male genitalia can even go so far as to insist that his 'girl dick' is a female sex organ.

To point this out is regarded as "inflammatory". Is it inflammatory to highlight the inflammatory placards of the TWA? Are we supposed to not notice? Not mention it?

Prejudiced, closed-minded, as well as hate-peddling and pathetic. More insults, and more of you deciding how others think. Please remember this next time you moan about how you consider you are treated on these threads?

As people keep saying, transwomen are transwomen. I am not going to refer to them as women, as women are women, and there is an obvious difference. It doesn't matter how people 'identify', we are what we are, and colonising the language so that it is impossible to tell whether people are talking about men or women, and women get subsumed into a category that takes no account of the shared experiences of women, but includes anyone who chooses to call themselves female.

As for 'intersex' people (or people with DSDs as they prefer to be known), it is not prejudiced to say that someone who has gone through male puberty should not be able to race against women as it gives them an unfair advantage - it is pragmatism.

It makes no difference whether I believe transwomen are men or not. If I say the magic words it wont have any impact on a transwomans sex.

So, how did we get here .......? Labelling and 'bettering' have got us here Dickens.

Intersectional feminists believing they have the moral high ground because they, and only they are inclusive. They and only they are accepting of the trans gender community, unlike the rest of of us second class feminists, who care only for biological women. They are so much more enlightened than we are; so much 'better'.

We are TERFS who 'peddle hate' and yet we are not the ones doing and saying the awful things that are designed to shut us up, to deny us the language that belongs to us, to attempt to infiltrate the places that belong to us and to deny us our right to fair competition in sport.

Oh the irony of what I've seen here on GN. Intersectional feminists, whose all inclusive mantra when it comes to any discussion about transgender, far from including women, attempts to exclude us.

We've even been demoted from 'second class feminists' to a cult status.

I agree with all of that Smiles, and would add that it is we who are accused of making personal comments and 'hounding', when a cursory glance at this thread would show anyone just where these comments are coming from, and to whom they are addressed.