Gransnet forums

Chat

Transgender women and an early state pension.

(467 Posts)
Sago Tue 05-Mar-24 10:00:32

Transgender women born between 31 October 1953 and 6 November 1953 may be eligible for State Pension from 31 October 2018 to the date of their 65th birthday.

I’m not sure how I feel about this.

Galaxy Wed 06-Mar-24 21:14:13

It might be worth reflecting on the personal responsibility to society on trying to control speech, or force people to lie. I wonder what research has been done on the impact of such behaviour. My guess is zero, much like the 'research' that backed up all the previous assertions which were later found to be untrue or harmful.

VioletSky Wed 06-Mar-24 22:10:15

Galaxy

Fortunately I am at liberty to discuss anything I like within the guidelines. I know that is very hard for some people to cope with. Nonetheless it remains the reality.

Of course, your individual liberty is not and never will be up for debate. I am just also at liberty to say...

I think some of the opinions expressed by yourself and others are lacking in personal responsibility

VioletSky Wed 06-Mar-24 22:11:51

Galaxy

It might be worth reflecting on the personal responsibility to society on trying to control speech, or force people to lie. I wonder what research has been done on the impact of such behaviour. My guess is zero, much like the 'research' that backed up all the previous assertions which were later found to be untrue or harmful.

I have addressed this strange notion above and would add...

I have never seen you stand against the actions of others attempting to shut down those with a different opinion to your own

Mollygo Wed 06-Mar-24 23:13:17

VS
I think some of the opinions expressed by yourself and others are lacking in personal responsibility
Excellent own goal VS.
But anyone supporting lies and advocating that others should accept the lies and spread them isn’t showing much personal responsibility themselves.

My personal responsibility says that I should continue to reject the lies and violence perpetrated by TRA and the lies cheating and violence by some trans, because they harm females and damage the image of all trans.
If your personal responsibility means you to believe that lying is OK to accept and spread, whatever the circumstances then that’s your choice.

VioletSky Thu 07-Mar-24 07:34:35

No one has to lie mollygo

If you can't use a person's chosen pronouns it is very simple to use gender neutral pronouns

But I appreciate that for once you used "some" rather than blaming a whole vulnerable demographic for the actions of a few, that's amazing progress

Mollygo Thu 07-Mar-24 08:48:19

VioletSky

No one has to lie mollygo

If you can't use a person's chosen pronouns it is very simple to use gender neutral pronouns

But I appreciate that for once you used "some" rather than blaming a whole vulnerable demographic for the actions of a few, that's amazing progress

VS
I’ve never said all trans are responsible for the lies, cheating and violence, though you evidently only see what you want to see.

I’ve said, and I’ll repeat, in case you missed it every time, that TRA and those trans who lie and cheat to the detriment of women (AHF) and are violent towards women (AHF) are responsible for the damage to the reputation of all trans.

Re pronouns. If I’m talking to anyone, trans or not, I use you.

If I’m talking about anyone I use the correct pronoun for their sex.

If that offends them, or you, they, and you have as much right to be offended as I have to be offended that someone is lying about their sex and even worse, expecting me to perpetuate that lie.

VS, is it only the lie that TW are women (AHF) that is acceptable to for you to hear and repeat or do you accept all lies as being the truth?
I didn’t hear an answer to that question before, and I don’t suppose you’ll answer it this time either.
Now you answering that would be amazing progress.
Sorry, I forgot to add lol

Smileless2012 Thu 07-Mar-24 09:00:49

I have never seen anyone, on any of the numerous threads on this issue refer to the entire trans gender community when expressing their concerns.

I'd ask you to provide evidence VS but it would be a waste of time.

Doodledog Thu 07-Mar-24 09:57:06

Agreed, Smileless. I will repeat - the vast vast majority of sex pests and rapists are men, which is why women have private spaces when we are vulnerable. Not all men are rapists (in fact the vast majority are not) but to prevent the ones who are from doing harm, no men were, until recently, allowed in. An odd cleaner or maintenance worker would announce himself in case his presence troubled women using the space. Nobody found this oppressive, discriminatory or hateful. Nobody needed to ‘check genitals’ or any of the other TA tropes - it was a tacit social contract which worked well for centuries. Everyone knew that this was to prevent the baddies from posing as the good guys and doing harm.

Regardless of their ‘feelings’, transwomen are men. Chaps. Lads. Blokes. Call them what you like, but every cell in their bodies is male. Like all the other men, most of them are not sex pests, but (and here’s the important bit) if they are allowed to access female spaces, those spaces are no longer women-only, so how do we know which of the men are the bad guys and which are not? Wearing a dress doesn’t take away superior strength, neutralise testosterone or stop sex offenders from offending. Not wanting men in women’s spaces is not discrimination against transpeople- it is simply wanting to keep women’s spaces safe for women.

I see there are no replies to the questions I asked upthread, incidentally. There never are. People can bluster as much as they like, make snide comments, twist words, make accusations of phobia, but until someone can answer those questions they don’t have a coherent argument for imposing men into women’s spaces.

Galaxy Thu 07-Mar-24 10:36:51

I am referring to men, whether they are trans is of no interest to me. This is I am afraid an issue about men.

Rosie51 Thu 07-Mar-24 10:41:55

Doodledog 👏👏👏

I would add I have always seen Mollygo use some whenever criticising the behaviour and attitudes of some TRAs and some transwomen. I'd be most surprised if VioletSky can find even one example of where she hasn't.

Smileless2012 Thu 07-Mar-24 10:54:45

Or one example where anyone hasn't Rosie.

NanKate Thu 07-Mar-24 11:12:58

Well said Doodledog

I had a complaint from a member of my WI who said I had upset ‘some’ of our members by saying how disappointed I was that in a democratic Institute like the WI we were not given a vote on whether to accept transwomen.

I have to add no one put their side of the transgender case, they hid behind the parapet imo.

I told them that up to date 3018 members of the WI had signed the WI Declaration petition asking for a vote on this subject and the National WI have so far ignored our concerns.

The vast majority of transwomen are no threat to women, but the militant ones are of great concern to me.

It seems unfair to men if transwomen get a pension at the same time as natal women.

VioletSky Thu 07-Mar-24 15:02:13

Smileless2012

I have never seen anyone, on any of the numerous threads on this issue refer to the entire trans gender community when expressing their concerns.

I'd ask you to provide evidence VS but it would be a waste of time.

I can get you evidence

How many do you need?

Smileless2012 Thu 07-Mar-24 15:36:00

Just one will do.

VioletSky Thu 07-Mar-24 16:59:11

I made a mistake, it was not Mollygo who said it and I apologise for that

However I still think that saying that the actions of a very few "are responsible for the damage to the reputation of all trans", is the very definition of discrimination.

Because that only happens if you are happy to allow it to

Rosie51 Thu 07-Mar-24 17:06:32

VioletSky

I made a mistake, it was not Mollygo who said it and I apologise for that

However I still think that saying that the actions of a very few "are responsible for the damage to the reputation of all trans", is the very definition of discrimination.

Because that only happens *if you are happy to allow it to*

Perhaps you can now name who was responsible since you were perfectly happy to accuse and denigrate Mollygo As you've obviously checked back to know you were wrong about Mollygo it will be easy enough.

VioletSky Thu 07-Mar-24 17:22:18

I don't think that would be right

So no

Smileless2012 Thu 07-Mar-24 17:22:36

You did say "I can get you evidence How many do you need?" and as I only requested one as well as naming the poster, who isn't Mollygo could you quote the post *VS .

In what way is saying the actions of a very few "are responsible for the damage to the reputation of all trans" is the very definition of discrimination?

Smileless2012 Thu 07-Mar-24 17:26:53

"I don't think that would be right" do you mean that you can't because having looked no one's actually blamed "a whole vulnerable demographic for the actions of a few" VS?

Rosie51 Thu 07-Mar-24 17:33:07

Smileless2012

"I don't think that would be right" do you mean that you can't because having looked no one's actually blamed "a whole vulnerable demographic for the actions of a few" VS?

That seems most likely. Funny how VS was happy to denigrate Mollygo who is innocent of the posts, but unwilling to link to the real transgressor...............hmmmmmm

Offers to provide evidence then backs away......

VioletSky Thu 07-Mar-24 17:33:20

The definition of discrimination is to treat someone differently or less fairly

Saying that the behaviour of some is damaging the reputation of all, allows for discrimination because you are placing the all in an unfair position by attaching the actions of a few to their reputation

It is the cause of stereotyping which unfairly impacts all demographics in many different ways

I have explained this before though and most do not understand this concept on these threads

Bridie22 Thu 07-Mar-24 17:42:24

The definition of discrimination is to treat someone differently or unfairly
We could apply this to the current treatment of biological females then VS !!!

Allsorts Thu 07-Mar-24 17:42:48

What a load of tosh being spouted, gender neutral pronouns to address someone. If they were dressed as a woman but I could see quite plainly it was a man or a woman who was quite clearly a man, because you can tell, it’s very obvious, I would not use anything. How anyone could not tell Eddie Izzard is a man for example, I couldn't refer to him as she because he clearly isn’t.

VioletSky Thu 07-Mar-24 17:56:43

Let's look at profiling versus discrimination

Profiling is something we use in every day situations. If you are in an alleyway and someone with a knife is at one end and someone without a knife is at the other, you are going to make an objective decision about which direction is safest no matter who is standing at either end. We could potentially be completely wrong about which direction is safest but it's a necessary survival instinct

Crime statistics force profiling onto women all the time. Alone in many situations we must assess risk. This genuinely happens to women with trans women at times, profiling can show risk and risk brings fear.

However, most women do not profile men in safe situations as long as that man has historically been trustworthy.

Profiling a trans woman in a woman's safe space can be understood if we are talking about risk, it can and it is the reason I have never advocated for women to lose those spaces

However, saying that all trans, trans men or women, have damaged reputations due to the actions of others is not profiling it's discrimination. Because it doesn't differentiate between individuals or scenarios.. it doesn't profile or assess risk, it is a blanket statement and a blanket outcome for trans people that ultimately places them at risk in everyday life

That's the difference

Bridie22 Thu 07-Mar-24 18:03:52

Let's not look at the profiling VS... As intelligent biological women we are quite capable of observing what is happening around us, we know lying when it's obvious, we don't need you to lecture us, as you sadly seem unaware or unconcerned about AHFs.