Transgender women and an early state pension.

VioletSky instead of lecturing us in an attempt to deflect, if your apology to Mollygo was sincere, and you were genuinely mistaken in attributing posts to her that she had not made you would link to the offending posts made by someone else. All the while you opt to not do that do not be surprised if some posters suspect your motives and truthfulness.

Violetsky said Profiling a trans woman in a woman's safe space can be understood if we are talking about risk, it can and it is the reason I have never advocated for women to lose those spaces

Surely this is an oxymoron. How can one believe a transwoman to be a woman in one situation but not in another? That’s just magical thinking, it makes no sense.

I'm pretty sure I'm not the only one who doesn't need to be told the definition of discrimination VS which is why I asked you what was discriminating about something you claimed is, when it isn't.

When it comes to the discussion of trans women in women's safe spaces, it has always been with regard to risk.

I agree SueDonim either someone believes trans women are women, or they don't.

SueDonim

Violetsky said Profiling a trans woman in a woman's safe space can be understood if we are talking about risk, it can and it is the reason I have never advocated for women to lose those spaces

Surely this is an oxymoron. How can one believe a transwoman to be a woman in one situation but not in another? That’s just magical thinking, it makes no sense.

It really is very simple

There are women here who will never accept trans women as women and believe them to be men, so therefore are just as frightened of a trans woman using a woman's safe space as if a man would walk in

Because some women feel that way due to trauma, I advocate for protecting women's safe spaces. I also respect the equality act

Rosie51

VioletSky instead of lecturing us in an attempt to deflect, if your apology to Mollygo was sincere, and you were genuinely mistaken in attributing posts to her that she had not made you would link to the offending posts made by someone else. All the while you opt to not do that do not be surprised if some posters suspect your motives and truthfulness.

I don't care frankly

It would not change a single thing about the way people behave

VioletSky

The definition of discrimination is to treat someone differently or less fairly

So by that criterion VS you agree that:

1. TW cheating to enter female sports, in order to take awards from females is discriminating against women-treating them less fairly (AHF).
Hurray!

2. That ANY TW accessing female safe spaces i.e. spaces where females can be free from male presence, like female domestic abuse shelters is treating women less fairly by making it clear that they don’t feel females should have a safe space.

Hurray!

And yes VS I did say ANY, because if it says female safe space then if ANY TW attempts to go there they are treating women unfairly.
But we know it would only be SOME TW who would do that.

Regardless of how unfair you think it is, and actually I agree it’s unfair, VS,
the actions of those TW who hit the headlines for cheating, lying or violence which is to the detriment of females impact on ALL TW because those headlines are the first thing that springs to mind when people hear the word trans.
Facts in the news about TW cheating in sport, about TW exposing themselves in female toilets and TW attacking females for saying men shouldn’t be there, about rapists declaring they are TW and thus should be in female prisons, about TW who declare that anyone (or a specific person) who says TW are not female deserves to die etc. etc.

Do those violent, cheating, lying TW, or the TRA who support them and attack females for telling the truth that sex is immutable, care what impact their actions have on other trans?

Evidently not.

There is the proof

For years I have advocated for fairness is sports and protection for women's safe spaces

But Mollygo likes to pretend that is not the case

I hold a firm middle ground here by advocating for women and trans women and that's dangerous as it means I make good points everyone must squash

VS you live in a parallel universe to most of us and rarely make sense!

Bridie22

VS you live in a parallel universe to most of us and rarely make sense!

And this is an example of the shut down tactics often used on these threads

Only learnt them from you, and frankly I don't care !

Let's face it, if people really had compassion and empathy for trans people and wanted them to have equal rights...

They wouldn't refuse their pronouns

They wouldn't call them TIM or other variations

Thy wouldn't be saying or doing anything that would jepordise a trans person's mental health

They wouldn't ever say it is down to trans people to self fund their own safe spaces or find solutions to problems

We would all be working together to ensure everyone's needs are met

We certainly wouldn't be cross that trans women can claim a pension when women can...

So

The aggressive militant transwomen have done all transgender people a massive disservice.

That sounds fair, Doodledog!!

Aveline

The aggressive militant transwomen have done all transgender people a massive disservice.

Another example of my earlier point

The drug 'domperidone' sounds like a wine. Lol.

Aveline

The aggressive militant transwomen have done all transgender people a massive disservice.

Yes, but you’ll never get that through to them or their supporters.

No, trans people and their allies will never accept discrimination

VioletSky

Rosie51

VioletSky instead of lecturing us in an attempt to deflect, if your apology to Mollygo was sincere, and you were genuinely mistaken in attributing posts to her that she had not made you would link to the offending posts made by someone else. All the while you opt to not do that do not be surprised if some posters suspect your motives and truthfulness.

I don't care frankly

It would not change a single thing about the way people behave

So you were deliberately making it up about those posts you were attributing to Mollygo and that's why you cannot link to a single one. Not nice or honest behaviour.

That quote from the great Maya Angelou - "When someone shows you who they are, believe them the first time." seems very appropriate.

However, saying that all trans, trans men or women, have damaged reputations due to the actions of others is not profiling its discrimination. Because it doesn't differentiate between individuals or scenarios.. it doesn't profile or assess risk, it is a blanket statement and a blanket outcome for trans people that ultimately places them at risk in everyday life

But that's not what people are saying. We are saying that the reputations of transpeople have been harmed by those who force their way into female spaces. Not that all transpeople have damaged the reputations of others. There is a huge difference.

As the user of a woman's space, how is someone to tell the difference between an honest transwoman and a predator? And how is a service user to know whether someone calling themselves Sally and using female pronouns is really male, when she makes an appointment for rape counselling in a traumatised state? Or that going to a female-only swimming session as a religious Muslim will mean sharing with males who say they are women?

It is the transwomen who do these things that spoil things for the rest. If they carried on doing whatever they think 'living as a woman' means, but refrained from using 'women only' spaces (and they are relatively few in number) there would be no problem for the majority of people. They could use mixed or male swimming sessions, counsel people on areas other than sexual matters, or retrain as something else, and take clothes home to try them on, or order online and return what doesn't fit. There is almost always a workaround.

FFIW, I don't think you do take a firmly middle ground, VS. On the contrary, however, most others on these threads do do just that. We are at pains to point out that we are not setting out to discriminate against transpeople, but that the actions of some of them make it impossible not to do so - in the way that the actions of some men mean that women needed safe spaces in the first place, so no men are welcome. Otherwise, we are perfectly happy to live and let live. We just want a two way street. That is the middle ground, with those who are actively anti-trans on one side of it, and those who don't care about the rights of women on the other.

I don't feel victimised because I am not welcome in male changing rooms or gents' loos, and I don't know a man who is concerned that he is not welcome in female spaces - they understand that this is for the protection of women, and welcome the precautions that have been in place for years, even though they would never dream of harming anyone themselves.

Finally, when you say that not letting transwomen use female spaces is a blanket statement and a blanket outcome for trans people that ultimately places them at risk in everyday life, are you saying that being vulnerable in male spaces amongst men is risky for transwomen? If so, how can you not see that the same holds true for women if men are in their spaces when they are vulnerable? Or is it that women's needs are less important?

Violetsky said For years I have advocated for fairness is sports and protection for women's safe spaces

That is double-speak, though, VS. You’re holding two contradictory beliefs at once. That a transwoman is a woman when in one situation eg using a female-designated changing room at a swimming pool, but they then become a man when in the swimming pool taking part in a competition.

Rosie51 I haven't made anything up

I attributed s comment to Mollygo she didn't make and I have apologized

Would you like to actually join the discussion or continue with personal attacks?

VS
For years I have advocated for fairness is sports and protection for women's safe spaces
But Mollygo likes to pretend that is not the case?
How have I done that VS?

So VS, by saying (And I’m quoting what I said above)

VS you agree that:

1. TW cheating to enter female sports, in order to take awards from females is discriminating against women-treating them less fairly (AHF).

And you agree that
2. That ANY TW accessing female safe spaces i.e. spaces where females can be free from male presence, like female domestic abuse shelters is treating women less fairly by making it clear that they don’t feel females should have a safe space.

I claimed that you did believe what I wrote.
Are you now saying you don’t believe those things?

I’m not sure how you work that out.
I say you believe something. Hurray!

You say you’ve always said that but you think I’m saying you don’t believe it?

Next from VS

I hold a firm middle ground here by advocating for women and trans women and that's dangerous as it means I make good points everyone must squash.

Isn’t Everyone a slight exaggeration VS?
And, you can’t have a firm middle ground when one side of the ground is built on a biological untruth.

The difference between what you claim to do and what I claim is that I do not advocate for those TW who act to the detriment of women and whose actions in cheating and lying and offering violence towards women (AHF) would make it impossible.

Now if you were to say outright that you do not support TW who are violent towards females or who cheat and lie to the detriment of females, your middle ground would be firmer and a lot less likely to cause you harm in the way that sitting on the fence of advocating for women and trans will.

SueDonim

Violetsky said For years I have advocated for fairness is sports and protection for women's safe spaces

That is double-speak, though, VS. You’re holding two contradictory beliefs at once. That a transwoman is a woman when in one situation eg using a female-designated changing room at a swimming pool, but they then become a man when in the swimming pool taking part in a competition.

No, I have always said trans women are trans women, I believe the distinction is important in some instances, for example, ensuring that people get the right medical attention

To deny them their pronouns is to deny them their validity which is worse than discrimination, is it not?

Mollygo I have never and would never defend an abusive person. You have heard me say that many times too

I think this discussion would go better if you were to allow me my own thoughts, not what it suits you to assign to me for whatever reason

Saying that trans women are men is not denying them their pronouns, it is stating a biological truth. Denying them their pronouns would be to refer to them as he when they want to be referred too as she.

What are these equal rights that the trans gender community are being denied? I see this claim time and time again on these threads and despite asking this question time and time again, never receive an answer.