Transgender women and an early state pension.

Those were two separate points Smileless

And that's an easy answer

Denying their right to be from discrimination...

To deny them their pronouns is to deny them their validity which is worse than discrimination, is it not?
Worse than discrimination, I really can't see that. How on earth does using the correct sex pronouns for somebody deny them validity? If someone is confident in who they are why do they need me or anyone else to "validate" them. Do people other than transpeople also need to be validated and if so how do we do that? Compelled speech, forcing someone to deny the evidence of their eyes and lie, that is attempting to invalidate their understanding of the real world.

Well, for example, in a workplace, refusing to use someone's pronouns is considered harassment and creating a hostile work environment

So compelled lying! What if you just always use the name they go by? It might be torturous language but wouldn't be being complicit in a lie.

There is never a need to misgender someone, that is deliberate and unnecessary

There is never a need for a transwoman to use a women only space when there is an alternative mixed sex space available, think Hampstead ponds, but they do. Even in the knowledge that it may prevent some women being able to use that space. I'd call that hostile.

Rosie51

There is never a need for a transwoman to use a women only space when there is an alternative mixed sex space available, think Hampstead ponds, but they do. Even in the knowledge that it may prevent some women being able to use that space. I'd call that hostile.

You changed the subject so fast I got whiplash

Well, 3/4 of the 200 that voted, voted to keep allowing trans women as they have for 14 years. Sadly those who wanted to force trans women from the space they had been happily using for quite some time, got very confrontational and discriminatory

We need to be able to discuss the fact that transwomen are men.
The answer is no. I will not say the magic words.

VioletSky

Mollygo I have never and would never defend an abusive person. You have heard me say that many times too

I think this discussion would go better if you were to allow me my own thoughts, not what it suits you to assign to me for whatever reason

Nice wriggle VS. I have never heard you say that you don’t defend the abusive TW or that you support posters who are able to say that they don’t support the abusive TW.


Re your discussion point, I think, that it would be better if you did that too VS.

SueDonim

Violetsky said
For years I have advocated for fairness is sports and protection for women's safe spaces

That is double-speak, though, VS. You’re holding two contradictory beliefs at once. That a transwoman is a woman when in one situation eg using a female-designated changing room at a swimming pool, but they then become a man when in the swimming pool taking part in a competition.

Well put SueDonim.

I must have missed all the posts

What are these equal rights that the trans gender community are being denied? I see this claim time and time again on these threads and despite asking this question time and time again, never receive an answer.
I would like to see an answer to this, too. And to remind anyone who might like to engage with my earlier questions that they remain unanswered. They are simple enough:

* How does someone know that they ‘feel like’ a woman when they aren’t one, so don't know what a woman feels like?

* What does ‘living as a woman mean’?

* If a transwomen are intact males, how do they differ from men?

* Why were women’s spaces created in the first place, and what has changed to mean that we no longer need them now?

* What is it about men that means that their wants have to take precedence over the needs of women to have privacy and dignity when we are vulnerable? Why do thes wants also override the religious obligations of some groups of women?

Wanting to maintain women's safe spaces, sports etc and the language that is for and defines women, isn't denying trans women's right to be free from discrimination VS.

It's dressed up by some as discrimination if they can't have what they want, regardless of how it impacts on women. That is discrimination.

VS said To deny them their pronouns is to deny them their validity which is worse than discrimination, is it not?

You’re changing the subject, I wasn’t talking about pronouns.

Also, I wasn’t put on this earth to ‘validate’ other people’s choices. I don’t even know what that means, unless it’s agreeing with everything someone says, like claiming they’re Napoleon or the Pope.

SueDonim

VS said To deny them their pronouns is to deny them their validity which is worse than discrimination, is it not?

You’re changing the subject, I wasn’t talking about pronouns.

Also, I wasn’t put on this earth to ‘validate’ other people’s choices. I don’t even know what that means, unless it’s agreeing with everything someone says, like claiming they’re Napoleon or the Pope.

Agreed, SD. It is supremely arrogant to suggest that anyone not 'validating one's choices' is somehow discriminatory. I choose to pee in safety, and to choose which men see me naked. I also choose not to be coerced into colluding with the fetishes of AGP men. Why are those choices not validated?

I don't need to specify "abusive trans woman" I would never defend anyone abusive, the idea I would not include trans women in that is absolutely absurd

I would suggest you all look up what discrimination against trans people looks like and feels like

You don't have to discriminate to keep your beliefs. No one does

If you want to walk around saying trans women are men or misgendering people, you just have to be honest about that and say that you are not interested in being accepting to trans people. Some posters here are at least honest about that and I can respect it, in a way... Not much but in a way

VioletSky

I would suggest you all look up what discrimination against trans people looks like and feels like

You don't have to discriminate to keep your beliefs. No one does

If you want to walk around saying trans women are men or misgendering people, you just have to be honest about that and say that you are not interested in being accepting to trans people. Some posters here are at least honest about that and I can respect it, in a way... Not much but in a way

Transwoman are male. They would be women if they weren’t. And if you genuinely want to protect women from male sex abuse you would at least try to take on board the reality that allowing males into female spaces is risky- for the gazillionth time, not because transpeople are inherently dangerous, but because males can be dangerous to women, and like it or not, transwomen are male.

You can create a whole vocabulary to erase women and make victims of transwomen - ‘misgendering’, ‘authentic selves’, ‘wrong bodies’ etc. When people are coerced into using that vocabulary it will shape the argument (which is why the trans lobby want it, and why many feminists won’t engage with it) but it won’t change reality. It is impossible to change sex, and sometimes in life we don’t get what we want, however much we stamp our feet.

It seems overwhelmingly (to me anyway) that men who have been a mediocre loser in male culture have invented their own solution:put on a skirt, a wig and shave your legs and Abracadabra! Biological women's space is your oyster and with all that spare testosterone you can easily go straight to the front of the queue.
And if any biological woman objects you can just steam-roller them the way the transtypes have howled down J K Rowling.
That's how men like to solve a problem after all......isn't it?

Then you are discriminating when absolutely no one can firmly say that gender dysphoria doesn't exist for a biological reason

There is also absolutely no way to prove whether dangerous men claiming to be trans woman actually have gender dysphoria at all and aren't simply fetishizing women

Which means you are blaming trans women for the actions of abusive men, even though abusive men could masquerade as women to infiltrate safe spaces even if trans women didn't exist

And most trans women care about women's feelings and avoid public toilets or safe spaces for your comfort, yet you still want to throw them under a bus

Baffling

I think that is true in some cases, mae. Sport is the obvious area where this happens. In others it is simple misogyny - ‘women have shaken off the shackles of the 50s, so let’s reinstate them and tell them what being female means’. Then there’s the fetishists, and the ones who get off on power and seeing fear or shock. In amongst all that are vulnerable people who just want to live as their version of being female suggests is how women live.

That group are, as ‘some posters’ keep saying, hugely disadvantaged by the others. It’s sad, but it is not the role of women to put ourselves and our daughters at risk do that they can do it. They need to negotiate that with their own sex.

If there is no way to prove the things in your early paragraphs, how do you prove the assertions in the last one?

And whilst dysphoria may ‘exist’, so does anorexia, or psychopathy or all sorts of things that don’t give people a free pass to tread on the toes of others. Trotting out that dysphoria is ‘real’ doesn’t add to the debate, as nobody is saying it’s not. It’s reckoned to account for a tiny number of cases though.

Sorry, the quote function didn’t work. My last post was in response to VS’s above.

Are you saying you believe gender dysphoria is a mental illness?

If so why are we able to cure "anorexia" and "psychopathy" but have never been able to cure gender dysphoria?

I love JK Rowlings response to the " transwomen are women" brigade.
" This is nonsense. 99.9% of the world knows its nonsense. The emperor is naked. he might be wearing lipstick, but his balls are swinging in plain sight '
Well said that lady.

Violet Sky you can't cure psychopathy. Anorexia is a different condition altogether. Neither can be compared to gender dysphoria.
Thank God for JK Rowling. A powerful voice of sense.

Constantly trotting out the term gender dysphoria in these discussions is a smoke screen. As I posted earlier on this thread, it accounts for only 0.005 - 0.014 % of trans gender cases.

It doesn't IMO account for those who do not fully transition. For those trans women who adopt a limited outward appearance of a woman by retaining their male genitalia, or the trans man who retains their womb and becomes pregnant.

Unfounded accusations of discrimination, blaming trans women for the actions of abusive men and throwing them under the bus, add nothing constructive to this discussion and are an attempt to close down the debate.