Realism V Idealism

Casdon

Namsnanny

Casdon

Namsnanny

What is this thread hoping to achieve Cossy?

Presumably an intelligent philosophical debate - is that bad in some way?

I don't know, you raised the question.

I certainly don’t think it is, I’m with Joseann, and interested to hear what Cossy had in mind.

That's why I asked her

Germanshepherdsmum

Remind me, Glorianny, weren’t you a teacher? If so you probably didn’t employ people. I did, and I was a director of a construction company which employed people - a great many. I also acted for companies which were very significant employers, My experience is a great deal wider than you imagine. Don’t imagine that I just sat behind a desk preparing documents - you couldn’t be more wrong.

Well you seem to be singularly unaware that the employment of asylum seekers is not only viable but highly desirable for many small business owners.

fancythat

When I first came on this forum, I was surprised quite how much it felt like being 17 again, and back at school doing debates.
And I have to say, much of it was[and still is to a certain extent] in the Politics Section.

Yes, pie in the sky.

Part of the reason I am not on it so much nowadays.
I really cannot be bothered to debate like that.

That is exactly why a lot of us like Gransnet though, fancythat, not the sixth form element, but to debate beliefs and ideas in a free space. Politics is a fascinating subject if you are interested in it, but for those who don’t want to enter the fray there’s so much else discussed on Gransnet that it’s easy to avoid it.

Cossy

growstuff

Idealism is shutting one's eyes and thinking problems will disappear. Realism is accepting the current situation and looking for solutions.

It absolutely isn’t shutting one’s eyes and hoping things will disappear!

It isn’t. It’s recognising reality. Something the ‘bleeding hearts liberals’ are unable to do.

Just to clarify for anybody in doubt, being liberal and being an idealist are not the same thing.

Glorianny

Germanshepherdsmum

Remind me, Glorianny, weren’t you a teacher? If so you probably didn’t employ people. I did, and I was a director of a construction company which employed people - a great many. I also acted for companies which were very significant employers, My experience is a great deal wider than you imagine. Don’t imagine that I just sat behind a desk preparing documents - you couldn’t be more wrong.

Well you seem to be singularly unaware that the employment of asylum seekers is not only viable but highly desirable for many small business owners.

Highly desirable? Doubtful, but if any small businesses really are dying to employ them it’s so they can pay as little as possible for maximum work.They know nothing about the asylum seekers yet are happy to employ them, hmmmm.

Often, threads are started cos posters didn’t get the response they were really hoping for on a previous thread.
Y’know, idealists good/ realists bad kind of thing.It’s great to have ideals while keeping in touch with reality imo.

A bit like a bait and switch do you mean Oreo?

Too true Oreo.

I guess I don’t know, and have never acted for, ‘small business owners’ Glorianny, other than to buy groceries from them (and I haven’t noticed anyone who might be an asylum seeker in their shops). I wonder how much you know about them and their motives for wishing to employ asylum seekers?

Oreo

Glorianny

Germanshepherdsmum

Remind me, Glorianny, weren’t you a teacher? If so you probably didn’t employ people. I did, and I was a director of a construction company which employed people - a great many. I also acted for companies which were very significant employers, My experience is a great deal wider than you imagine. Don’t imagine that I just sat behind a desk preparing documents - you couldn’t be more wrong.

Well you seem to be singularly unaware that the employment of asylum seekers is not only viable but highly desirable for many small business owners.

Highly desirable? Doubtful, but if any small businesses really are dying to employ them it’s so they can pay as little as possible for maximum work.They know nothing about the asylum seekers yet are happy to employ them, hmmmm.

Haven't you heard about the minimum wage Oreo? It's what a lot of people in the service sector are paid anyway. Asylum seekers or not.

I would like to see Glorianny’s evidence that the employment of asylum seekers is ‘highly desirable’ for ‘many’ small business owners. What sort of small business owners and what makes asylum seekers such ‘highly desirable’ employees ? Or is it just a figment of the imagination?

Here we go again. Why do some posters have to sound so scornful of others's ideas.?

Germanshepherdsmum

I would like to see Glorianny’s evidence that the employment of asylum seekers is ‘highly desirable’ for ‘many’ small business owners. What sort of small business owners and what makes asylum seekers such ‘highly desirable’ employees ? Or is it just a figment of the imagination?

Wishful thinking !!

Germanshepherdsmum

Idealists have their place but some of their suggestions are hopelessly impractical. For instance some of the suggestions about how unskilled immigrants can earn a living, doing jobs which are so poorly paid that they will be reliant on benefits and/or have a side hustle in the black economy. I believe you suggested they might be gardeners, for instance, despite lacking horticultural knowledge or tools. And if they’re paid cash in hand do you believe they would declare their earnings?

Seriously, this is all you can think about? Fear of immigrants becoming unskilled gardeners and using a hoe instead of a rake?

What a silly comment.

Silly me, heres a little anecdote. A large Church near me had a very overgrown garden, a sad sight. The gravestones disappearing under weeds, filthy area. The vicar arranged a working party made up of local people, Church people and people seeking asylum who were housed locally.

It was a tremendous success.

Is this thread solely about immigration and I didn't get the memo? Either way, we obviously need both idealists and realists. Jesus was an idealist, Nye Bevan was an idealist. The human brain is hot wired for inspiration, not just pragmatism. As a species we have never restricted ourselves to existing knowledge and the "tried and tested", that is our strength.

Man cannot live by bread alone.

And that sort of experience will turn asylum seekers into skilled gardeners who can support themselves financially? Dream on.

Idealists seem to live in a fantasy world, even when events are not living up to their expectations. Many people exist in their own little bubble, seeing things as they want them to be. Fine, except when they try to force their fantasies on the rest of us.

Casdon

Just to clarify for anybody in doubt, being liberal and being an idealist are not the same thing.

They are also not the same as “bleeding hearts” Can we not have a balanced sensible debate without someone throwing in phrases like this and “snowflake” “virtual signalling” “lefties, loonies, left leaning”

Honestly, sometimes it’s like being in the school playground!

Germanshepherdsmum

And that sort of experience will turn asylum seekers into skilled gardeners who can support themselves financially? Dream on.

Morning GSM I don’t recall EVER saying that!

I didn’t say you did! I was referring to zakouma’s posts.

Oreo

Often, threads are started cos posters didn’t get the response they were really hoping for on a previous thread.
Y’know, idealists good/ realists bad kind of thing.It’s great to have ideals while keeping in touch with reality imo.

Thanks Oreo!

Honestly, I sometimes wonder what’s made some of you such cynics, and a little rude to boot.

I started this thread, as others have started threads, to have a debate about something that interests me, and yes of course it’s tied in with another thread where I suggested “temporary unskilled work for Asylum Seekers”, whilst they are waiting for their cases to be processed.

I still think it’s a good idea and could work in certain circumstances. It would give them a sense of purpose, keep them off the streets for a couple of hours, allow them to learn about their community, improve their use of English.

It’s doesn’t matter to me that some of you don’t agree, ts absolutely fine.

I have 14 years of experience placing the most difficult people into jobs and dealing with employees, prior to this I worked in the private sector in many different roles including hiring.

I wish you all a great Friday and a good weekend

Sorry employers not employees! Didn’t sleep well and need more coffe!

The problem with being an idealist must be you are constantly worrying about the imperfect way we treat each other, that must affect the mental health of many.

I’m a realist I cannot change the world all I can do is be as nice to those close to me as possible, mostly that is reciprocated.