Realism V Idealism

flappergirl

Is this thread solely about immigration and I didn't get the memo? Either way, we obviously need both idealists and realists. Jesus was an idealist, Nye Bevan was an idealist. The human brain is hot wired for inspiration, not just pragmatism. As a species we have never restricted ourselves to existing knowledge and the "tried and tested", that is our strength.

Man cannot live by bread alone.

Jesus was an idealist.

I’m not sure Jesus could be called an idealist.

‘Idealist: a person who is guided more by ideals than by practical considerations.’
- Oxford Languages

‘… many people saw the signs he was performing and believed in his name. But Jesus would not entrust himself to them, for he knew all people. He did not need any testimony about mankind, for he knew what was in each person.’
- John 2.23-25

Jesus knew that there is evil in the human heart.

He was also practical. After raising a 12 year old girl from the dead, he told her parents to give her something to eat (Mark 5.43).

Man cannot live on bread alone, ‘but on every word that comes from the mouth of God’ (Matthew 4.4).

Re my last post: Jesus did teach, and demonstrate, a better way of living (‘love your neighbour’). But he also recognised that people are imperfect and will often fail (and need forgiveness).

Idealism is about having a vision of what could be; realists acknowledge the steps that might/could/should be taken to achieve the idealist's aims. Surely the idea of a health service free at the point of delivery was only achievable in reality when there was the power to accomplish it.

I agree that we need aspiration as well as practicality.

Katie590

The problem with being an idealist must be you are constantly worrying about the imperfect way we treat each other, that must affect the mental health of many.

I’m a realist I cannot change the world all I can do is be as nice to those close to me as possible, mostly that is reciprocated.

To be fair Katie, very few people are just one thing, most of us have a leaning towards either realism or idealism, but also have a bit of other things too and are quite balanced.

I agree we need both, one cannot successfully exist without the other!

Idealists tend to have vision, imagination, foresight and optimism, but can let their ideas “run away with them”, they need realists to “keep them on track” and for some practical guidance.

I think I’m a realistic optimist, where that fits on the “idealistic” scale I’ve no idea but it means I have hope. I certainly couldn’t live without that!

Germanshepherdsmum

And that sort of experience will turn asylum seekers into skilled gardeners who can support themselves financially? Dream on.

No, it is the kind of work which needs doing and which keeps people off the streets. It gives people a purpose and an opportunity to meet with other people. It doesn't need skilled people to do it and the skills needed can easily be taught on the job.

Many asylum seekers want to study, if given the opportunity. Of course they wouldn't all go on to be skilled horticulturalists, but if granted asylum so they could actually study and work, they might even end up in a house with a garden. Meanwhile, they're being offered a reason to get out of bed. Many asylum seekers suffer from depression from having little hope or purpose.

It's not idealism to write about something which is already happening on a small scale.

Very trusting people here. I wouldn’t let just anyone be a gardener and have access to my property. They would need references and recommendations. I would call that realism.

Did you know you can mate a zebra with a donkey and get a zonkey? But I don’t think zonkeys can mate with one another. I will check and report back

I was asked for evidence about employers wanting asylum seekers I googled it because although I have local knowledge I wanted country-wide info. And guess what it isn't just small employers. Big businesses want them as well
www.peoplemanagement.co.uk/article/1827229/hiring-refugees-businesses-need-know-does-hr-need-do#:~:text=Big%2Dname%20employers%20such%20as,

And a report
www.refugee-action.org.uk/lift-the-ban/

JaneJudge

Did you know you can mate a zebra with a donkey and get a zonkey? But I don’t think zonkeys can mate with one another. I will check and report back

It’s actually called a Zeedonk, or at least the ones in Colchester Zoo are.

nanna8

Very trusting people here. I wouldn’t let just anyone be a gardener and have access to my property. They would need references and recommendations. I would call that realism.

However, no one is suggesting they should be “let loose” in individual gardens, there’s loads of public spaces, church land, parkland, where they could be usefully employed totally supervised.

Goodness, why do some people have to be so extreme! I would not advocate them cleaning in private houses either or babysitting your children or caring for your Nan!

Plenty of criminals do community service in many different ways, I’m suggesting something similar, but paid!

growstuff

“Germanshepherdsmum
And that sort of experience will turn asylum seekers into skilled gardeners who can support themselves financially? Dream on.
No, it is the kind of work which needs doing and which keeps people off the streets. It gives people a purpose and an opportunity to meet with other people. It doesn't need skilled people to do it and the skills needed can easily be taught on the job.

Many asylum seekers want to study, if given the opportunity. Of course they wouldn't all go on to be skilled horticulturalists, but if granted asylum so they could actually study and work, they might even end up in a house with a garden. Meanwhile, they're being offered a reason to get out of bed. Many asylum seekers suffer from depression from having little hope or purpose.

It's not idealism to write about something which is already happening on a small scale.”

👏👏👏 Yes, Growstuff entirely what I envisage!

Glorianny

I was asked for evidence about employers wanting asylum seekers I googled it because although I have local knowledge I wanted country-wide info. And guess what it isn't just small employers. Big businesses want them as well
www.peoplemanagement.co.uk/article/1827229/hiring-refugees-businesses-need-know-does-hr-need-do#:~:text=Big%2Dname%20employers%20such%20as,

And a report
www.refugee-action.org.uk/lift-the-ban/

I read it.
Businesses don’t want asylum seekers they want those who they can actually employ who have been granted refugee status.
It makes this quite clear and says businesses must be aware of the difference between asylum seekers and refugees.
For instance Ukrainians have refugee status among others.

Yes we do need ideals certainly personal ones, but wider ideals are not possible because the ideals of others are different.
On a national or global scale it’s all about realism, ideals go out of the window for a Government there are so many different ideals and on top of that you have to pay for whatever priorities you have.
The only influence I have is to vote for a different government, and I really don’t believe Labour is going to have vastly different policies but maybe they will be more honest.

It the idealogy of Hamas to drive the Jews out of Israel, no matter how many lives are lost.

Does anyone know if asylum seekers can do unpaid voluntary work? say litter picking
It would help them with their mental health and prevent groups of young men from handing around city centres.

utterbliss

Does anyone know if asylum seekers can do unpaid voluntary work? say litter picking
It would help them with their mental health and prevent groups of young men from handing around city centres.

I wouldnt know if an asylum seeker was legal or not if he came to my door. A few years ago I needed my floor sanded, contacted a local ad, a Polish lad turned up, did a satisfactory demonstration, got the job, paid cash, maybe I should have asked for his work permit!.

JaneJudge

Did you know you can mate a zebra with a donkey and get a zonkey? But I don’t think zonkeys can mate with one another. I will check and report back

I quite fancy a zonkey.
It could eat my lawn, then I wouldn't need a gardener.

utterbliss

Does anyone know if asylum seekers can do unpaid voluntary work? say litter picking
It would help them with their mental health and prevent groups of young men from handing around city centres.

Yes they can utterbliss.

Gov.UK, "Asylum seekers can volunteer whilst their claim is considered without being granted permission to work."

Locally it's organised by the Refugee/Asylum centre in conjunction with the Volunteer Centre.

Very large number of projects, of course most can only take a few, but together it's a model of how to try and co-operate. However, only realistic number wise in bigger towns/cities?

utterbliss

Does anyone know if asylum seekers can do unpaid voluntary work? say litter picking
It would help them with their mental health and prevent groups of young men from handing around city centres.

I don't know the legal position. In the case which seems to have sparked off this discussion my friend, who works in an asylum seeker hostel, asked some of them to help him out on his allotment. Some other allotment holders asked whether other asylum seekers would help them out too. They were acting as "friends", not an official voluntary organisation. My friend is an ex police officer and as straight as a die. I'm sure he would have cleared it with his supervisors.

I agree with this absolutely: It would help them with their mental health and prevent groups of young men from handing around city centres. That was my point - not that they would all go on to become horticulturalists.

Wyllow3

utterbliss

Does anyone know if asylum seekers can do unpaid voluntary work? say litter picking
It would help them with their mental health and prevent groups of young men from handing around city centres.

Yes they can utterbliss.

Gov.UK, "Asylum seekers can volunteer whilst their claim is considered without being granted permission to work."

Locally it's organised by the Refugee/Asylum centre in conjunction with the Volunteer Centre.

Very large number of projects, of course most can only take a few, but together it's a model of how to try and co-operate. However, only realistic number wise in bigger towns/cities?

Thank you Wyllow.

Most asyllum seekers are economic migrants so they do want work because there is none in their home country, many are educated to a good standard and speak English.

I don’t have a problem with migrants but we need a control system that works.

Does anyone actually believe that asylum seekers have undertaken that enormous journey to get here to go and be gardeners in our public parks?

Germanshepherdsmum

And that sort of experience will turn asylum seekers into skilled gardeners who can support themselves financially? Dream on.

Heres another one! The Syrian family who had nothing and now run one of the best restaurants in town. Is that of any use?

Asylum seekers can and do volunteer in many projects I've met quite a few who are helping run community projects. One of the young women had degrees, spoke excellent English and wanted to teach. She was running workshops for the local community. It is difficult for them though. They are in temporary accommodation, waiting for a judgement about their status for which they have no timeline, and they are not entitled to ask for one. It's difficult to commit to something when you are hoping your situation will soon change.