An interesting slant on the wearing of a burqa.

Of course it can.

Maremia

So few women in the UK wearing a burja, and all living rent free in so many GN minds.

That is because we are an open and free society where one of the assumptions that is made that people 's faces are not covered. Motorcyclists have to remove their helmets, in most situations where they are not on a moving bike

The whole genre of Gothic novels was based on the evil and mysteriousness of veiled and hooded people, whether monks, nuns, or assassins. Think of the young man with his hoody pulled round his face. Most people, ujustly treat them as suspect because they cannot see their faces.

It doesn't matter how many or how few people are wearing these garments, they cross too many boundaries that we have and that needs to be taken into account.

So, we, on GN, have a variety of opinions on the rights and wrongs of women in the UK wearing a burka.
What do the women who wear burkas feel about it? And does that matter?
Simplest way to find out is to ask Google.

How do women in the UK who wear the burka in the UK feel about doing so?

'Women in the UK who wear the burka (or more commonly, the niqab, which is a face veil leaving the eyes visible) generally report feeling that wearing it is a personal choice, a liberating expression of their faith and identity, and a means of achieving modesty and spiritual connection to God.'

I view it as a symbol of misogyny.
Lots of women support all sorts of things that are steeped in misogyny.

That’s one of significant points in this discussion Maremia. Google confirms what I’ve been told by a limited, number of young women.
I wonder how much of their ‘choice’ influenced by the kind of sexual harassment most of us experience, how much by solidarity with peers (Greenham wimin anyone) and how much by faith

There is a burgeoning feminist movement tackling the issue which I am watching with interest.

Galaxy, I would not wear a burka either.
Have frequently said on this Tread, I am against coercion.
Coercion to wear a burka.
Coercion to stop wearing one.

Personally, and it's just an opinion, because I don't know any of these women, but I think their faith has a lot to do with it.
Difficult for some of us to understand, in our own increasingly secular society. That's why, to understand them, you gave to step outside of your own preconceptions.
Not easy to do this.

Now that is interesting Galaxy.
How are they approaching the issue?

I would have to step outside my values which I won't do.
In many faiths homosexuality is a sin, I won't step out of my values about that either.

It is being discussed at the regular let women speak events. They were at the forefront of challenging the men in women's spaces issue.

Maremia

So, we, on GN, have a variety of opinions on the rights and wrongs of women in the UK wearing a burka.
What do the women who wear burkas feel about it? And does that matter?
Simplest way to find out is to ask Google.

How do women in the UK who wear the burka in the UK feel about doing so?

'Women in the UK who wear the burka (or more commonly, the niqab, which is a face veil leaving the eyes visible) generally report feeling that wearing it is a personal choice, a liberating expression of their faith and identity, and a means of achieving modesty and spiritual connection to God.'

We are free to disagree with other peoples profoundly felt beliefs.

I can only echo Monica's sentiments, the burka in particular has always come across as a barrier reducing to whoever the wearer may be as a non person, just some disembodied tent like beings moving about. In that respect sometimes they remind me of my childlike pondering about daleks many years ago when Dr Who had just been launched, insomuch was there a person underneath the encasement or is it some disembodied voice? Whilst many EU countries are beginning to put legislation in place against the wearing of the garment, at times I feel that is a draconian measure after all we cannot know whether the wearer has been forced to do so or not. Some say they haven't, but I think if that's the case they should have an eye to the sisterhood, those who don't have the choice, and not wear it. The more it's seen the more it becomes an ingrained symbol of oppression and it normalises submission. Look at the extreme version that the Afghan women have to wear, no peripheral vision, so dangerous as well, but for them just one of the many perils they have to navigate on a day to day basis. Then there are the patriarchal hang ups about women's hair that has been a diktat through so many cultures and religions. The woman's hair, it must be covered at all times, what is it with those men, is it because there is a likelihood they may lose theirs,? so some subliminal hair envy going on. Or simply females with uncovered hair are temptresses. That says a whole lot more about them imo. the onus of their temptations must be shifted to the woman, a woman's place will always be in the wrong. I remember taking my 3 year gd, as she was then, to see a children's production of the Gruffalo at a local theatre and in filed a class of tiny girls all with their heads bound in scarves, not one more than aged 5, not much more than tots Personally I don't have any problem with head scarves, except where women, or girls are forced to wear them as in Iran, where so many women in that country would love not to have to cover their heads, remember the 16 year old girl beaten senseless, later to die, her crime her scarf had slipped down the back of her head.

Going back to the total immersion of the body in the burka. It's such an all encompassing garment,that in itself could be problematic in establishing identity. I remember the murderer of WPC Sharon Beshenivsky a few years ago, he was able to flee the country wearing one, no one seem to question his size 11s poking out . He was able to evade justice for a couple of years I believe.

M0nica

Maremia

So, we, on GN, have a variety of opinions on the rights and wrongs of women in the UK wearing a burka.
What do the women who wear burkas feel about it? And does that matter?
Simplest way to find out is to ask Google.

How do women in the UK who wear the burka in the UK feel about doing so?

'Women in the UK who wear the burka (or more commonly, the niqab, which is a face veil leaving the eyes visible) generally report feeling that wearing it is a personal choice, a liberating expression of their faith and identity, and a means of achieving modesty and spiritual connection to God.'

We are free to disagree with other peoples profoundly felt beliefs.

Especially in our own society.

Where did ideas about integration go? When? Why?

My feeling is that this is really all about power - who has it and who does not.

Just as an example - and there are many - when the British invaded India, subjugating the Indian people and stealing their natural resources, I don't think the British women or men changed their manner of dress. They continued to wear the sort of clothes they had worn in the UK and retain British customs. They did it because they had the
power to do it. In a similar way, African people were forced to wear European clothing and follow the Christian religion.

Some British people are very annoyed when these examples are given, saying "why are we dwelling on that - it was such a long time ago". Actually, in the grand scheme of things, it wasn't such a long time ago, and it should give British people pause for thought - but, of course, it won't.

I am a little confused about this huge concern for muslim women and their rights. Of course, any acts of violence or coercion are absolutely wrong - but at the moment there is said to be an "explosion" of violence against women and girls in this country and, it appears, little recourse to the justice system. And there have been so many cases of rape, sexual assault and coercive control carried out by male police officers that I feel more attention should be paid to that.

Of course we all have the right to believe in our own traditions, as long as long as they are not coercive or harmful.
Coercion and harm are, in my view, wrong.
It is wrong for women to be forced to wear a burka or equivalent.
It is equally wrong for women to be forced to not wear a burka, if they wish to, and is not harmful.

Crikey these arguments of look over there are familiar. Thankfully feminists ignored them the last time.

Nobody is looking over there. And is supremely arrogant of us to suppose that brave Muslim feminist groups in countries where women are being oppressed are not working tirelessly to help fellow Muslim women. That is their fight and they really don’t need us to tell them we know best . All women the world over face their own fight, even those in western countries where domestic violence and rape are not the monopoly of those from a different culture.
And the evangelical movement in the US has a pretty dreadful record when it comes to women’s rights.
Maybe if we put our own house in order we can then smugly take the moral high ground. Until then let’s stop targeting a tiny percentage of women and start targeting men in our own communities.

Maremia

Of course we all have the right to believe in our own traditions, as long as long as they are not coercive or harmful.
Coercion and harm are, in my view, wrong.
It is wrong for women to be forced to wear a burka or equivalent.
It is equally wrong for women to be forced to not wear a burka, if they wish to, and is not harmful.

Except that if I chose to walk naked through the streets I would be arrested. Where is the difference? What I would be doing is not harmful.

I can’t think of a faith where waking around naked would be required but there are probably a few cults that require this.

I am not targeting, i am discussing an issue relating to feminism. By that metric discussing the issues of the evangelical right would be none if our business.

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

Posted on wrong thread.

Galaxy

I am not targeting, i am discussing an issue relating to feminism. By that metric discussing the issues of the evangelical right would be none if our business.

No it wouldn’t be any of our business unless the evangelical right was politicised in the US which it is. Just as Islam is politicised in Iran so is fair play to discuss this.
And I know there are groups of women in both instances robustly fighting for women’s rights, which should never be at the whim of political leaders or regimes.

Babs03

I can’t think of a faith where waking around naked would be required but there are probably a few cults that require this.

It isn’t faith that requires women to wear a burqa or niqab it’s the culture of wherever they come from in a heavily male dominant society.

Maremia

So, we, on GN, have a variety of opinions on the rights and wrongs of women in the UK wearing a burka.
What do the women who wear burkas feel about it? And does that matter?
Simplest way to find out is to ask Google.

How do women in the UK who wear the burka in the UK feel about doing so?

'Women in the UK who wear the burka (or more commonly, the niqab, which is a face veil leaving the eyes visible) generally report feeling that wearing it is a personal choice, a liberating expression of their faith and identity, and a means of achieving modesty and spiritual connection to God.'

Well, of course women who choose to wear the burka are going to feel and speak positively about wearing it.

I don’t know where your quote comes from but if you put into Google something like “How do women who have reflected the burka feel about doing so” you’ll get many very different quotes about how they view it as a symbol of oppression and blame.

Another view would be ‘How do women who are forced to wear the burka feel about doing so” but I believe it isn’t really possible to garner those views.