An interesting slant on the wearing of a burqa.

In any case I am not surprised one bit about the racist content on this thread or the failure of contributors to recognise it.

Babs03

That is not what I meant I was talking about racist comments about Muslims being all over Leicester and in London and spreading.
But if you want to be disingenuous about something so horrid that’s up to you. I even sent a post so you could see for yourself.
As with all racists the discussion about the burka was just a platform for them to then sue their odious opinions.
Anyone who thinks this is just about liberating women in burkas must be on another planet.

No idea what you're on about and why you are attacking me, saying I am bring disingenuous about something so horrid.
Nasty insinuations there.

The thread is about the wearing of the burqa.

Message deleted by Gransnet. Here's a link to our Talk guidelines.

Like I just said I am not surprised.

Nasty reply there Allira.
And no I am not trying to shut down anything, am simply stating what is patently obvious.

Well, I for one, am greatly offended by any randomer whatever sex, race, colour or creed judging my morals based on the fact that I do not dress "modestly" according to a mediaeval cultural diktat.

Babs03

Like I just said I am not surprised.

Well, a sideways attack again.

Nasty and totally unjustified.
Please cease.

Babs03

That is not what I meant I was talking about racist comments about Muslims being all over Leicester and in London and spreading.
But if you want to be disingenuous about something so horrid that’s up to you. I even sent a post so you could see for yourself.
As with all racists the discussion about the burka was just a platform for them to then sue their odious opinions.
Anyone who thinks this is just about liberating women in burkas must be on another planet.

If you mean you sent me a pm, please don't. I'd prefer you didn't.

I was trying to establish the difference between choice and coercion throughout the thread. It seems to be important.

If you think that is racist then yes, if that is what you are accusing me of, then it is a totally unjustified attack.

...and meanwhile back to the "When in Rome do as the Romans do" .....which some seem to be ignoring/skating over.

"When in Rome" meant that when I was in Turkey and wanted to have a look at a mosque/go inside it = I got handed a sort of elasticated waist skirt to put on at the door before going in (ie to hide my legs totally) and just took it and put it on. No need for a headsquare - I'd taken the precaution of putting my sarong/scarf over my head anyway just in case beforehand. I was wearing a "modest" type top anyway (as it was their country). Living/working in a house in Denmark years earlier - I'd taken one (startled!) look at the woman of the house going round in nothing sometimes and decided the best path was to go round in my bikini any time it was warm enough she wasnt wearing anything.

Point being - if you're in someone else's country and their way of dressing is different = you adapt to their way.

Our way is we're used to being able to easily recognise anyone/see what they're thinking/etc so.......

I think all points of view when discussing this topic (and others) are valid. It’s called discussion/debate.

Please posters, be respectful. Play the ball not the man and let EVERYONE have their say (provided it’s in GNHQ guidelines) let’s not shut anyone down.

This type of thread generates strong feelings. It ought to be very interesting to read and encourage further posts. However if it starts to get fractious, people are put off and back off.

Let’s continue in good faith!

Welll said!

Women and even young girls wear various head coverings for various reasons - what we need to be discussing is whether or not this is through choice or are they being controlled and coerced. without accusations of racism being made which impede discussion.

ExactlyCariadAgain it's a question of being respectful of other cultural norms if you're temporarily in that place.

I think it's worth pointing out again, given that various views on this thread have been deemed racist by some, men requiring women to cover up all or parts of their bodies is by no means exclusive to Islam or Judaism, many fervent, ultra right, white Christian sects demand the same.

I won't have any truck with such misogynistic male dictatorial views in my own space.

Well said FGT

Very true FGT. "Play the ball and not the person" indeed. I've certainly personally witnessed people on this forum trying to chuck others off - just because they have a different personal view to their own personal view (ie the other person hadnt done anything wrong by any objective standards!).

I agree Cariad it’s such a shame as it completely ruins some threads and hampers robust discussion. Which ought to be interesting.

None of us are likely to change anyone’s opinions by positing our views. However it’s good to be able to voice them!

FGT - true dat. What on earth would be the point of an "echo chamber"? - and it is hampering to think "I know there are a couple of people who obviously want me thrown off and I have figured out who they are - and there may be 'lurkers' as well that don't wish to hear any viewpoint other than their own and so maybe they stir it too and also try and get people of different views to their own personal one chucked off".

Babs03

That is not what I meant I was talking about racist comments about Muslims being all over Leicester and in London and spreading.
But if you want to be disingenuous about something so horrid that’s up to you. I even sent a post so you could see for yourself.
As with all racists the discussion about the burka was just a platform for them to then sue their odious opinions.
Anyone who thinks this is just about liberating women in burkas must be on another planet.

Babs03
Perhaps you would like to read the figures from the Arab News

www.arabnews.com/node/2208151/world

I’ve changed my opinion a few times on threads when someone has posted a well researched, well argued opinion and I’ve thought yes they have a point.

But when people start labelling others or making sneering remarks or dismissing experiences you know they’ve run out of logical discussion and aren’t prepared to consider any viewpoint except their own.

Many Posters on this Thread are opposed to the sartorial coercion of Muslim women in places like Afghanistan and Iran
but

appear to propose the legislation of sartorial coercion of Muslim women in the UK.

Intriguing

Allira

Welll said!

Women and even young girls wear various head coverings for various reasons - what we need to be discussing is whether or not this is through choice or are they being controlled and coerced. without accusations of racism being made which impede discussion.

Agreed!

Mentioned by me up thread, the sight of seeing small girls, so young 4 or 5, at a children's theatre production with their heads wrapped in scarves, an age when they could not possibly make an informed choice, outwardly very much a preordained expectation of how they as a girl child should be covered up from the earliest age. Although reflecting on that further at the time I could see comparisons of how I was inculcated along with my peers in all aspects of catholicism throughout childhood, possibly not so different. One of my sons went through his Richard Dawkins phase around late teens reading The God Delusion. RD has no time for organised religion per se, my son would often let me know RD's thoughts on "Muslims and Catholics "their children amongst the most brainwashed" was how he couched it. My son went on to say he was glad he wasn't brought up Catholic for that very reason. You have to live that life a bit to understand it. Of course, it's fair to say in the religion I grew up in you eventually make your mind up, most do in my experience, parents may not be too pleased when you lapse but it was ok I could front it out, without the worry they might actually kill me for throwing off the rituals of regular religious worship. I'm sure those freedoms would also apply to many Muslims who are amongst the less orthodox, Possibly like many Christians it's how they may loosely define themselves, but don't go along with the more draconian aspects. It's the ones that don't have those choices and are forced into a life between narrow patriarchal parameters. With that in mind the sight of the burka appears incongruous in a western society and reinforces the notion that women live a restricted life, even if they don't, the garment is an outward display of the more regressive strands of that faith. Many European nations see it as a barrier for women, women who they would want for them to embrace the culture of the country, they have chosen to live in.

Except Terribull sometimes these women have not independently chosen to come to Europe. They arrive in Europe with their male family members. Who sometimes don’t want their females to be ‘Westernised’. At All.

They are kept at home. They don’t go out to work, they don’t speak any English. They need an interpreter for medical appointments.

Recently in the Trafford Centre here in the NW I watched a Muslim family in Clark’s shoe shop.

Father was in traditional dress, a long cream tunic (I’ve forgotten what they are called, no matter) , black trousers and open toe leather sandals.

His wife was dressed in a burka and was sat beside him.

They had two children. A young boy in jeans (lucky him) and a tee. His older sister (age difficult to assess but by height? maybe 12/13).

She too was in a burka.

The assistant came over to attend to them, bringing a foot measure.

The father indicated. ‘No’,
He crouched down in front of his daughter and measured her feet himself.

I stopped watching.

I felt so very sad and kept thinking “it’s all about control” here. The freedom the males have! Nope, sorry I just don’t buy into this “choice” argument.

Maybe at age 18 when that girl can decide for herself.
Until then - just no.

Mind you, religion per se.
Catholic little 9 year old girls in confirmation dresses … Brides of Christ?

I don’t get it.

Maremia

Many Posters on this Thread are opposed to the sartorial coercion of Muslim women in places like Afghanistan and Iran
but

appear to propose the legislation of sartorial coercion of Muslim women in the UK.

Intriguing

I have always opposed the sartorial coercion of Muslim women in places like Iran and Afghanistan.

I have never supported legislation to ban it anywhere.. I believe that since the burqa is not a garment endorsed and enforced across a religion and demanded specifically by the relevant scriptures, as a garment it is no more religiously required than those all enveloping robes that nuns used to wear. It is over 50 years since almost every congregation of nuns adopted a habit more akin to what modern women wear.

Under those circumstances I can see no reason why they should get special treatment because they wear it and it must be clear that where health and safety or other requirements make it necessary, they should not be permitted to wear it.

Multiculturalism is a two way street, we need to be respectful to other peoples cultures but they need to be respectful to ours.

Accurate as always, Monica, but we are being coerced into feeling that our hard-won female freedoms are less important than a culture which is not part of our history. And even suggesting that this is a problem is castigated as somehow racist.

Well MOnica, I suspect you’ve hit the nail on the head there.
* …… i can see no reason why they should get special treatment because they wear it and it must be clear where health and safety or other requirements make it necessary, they should not to be permitted to wear it *

I’m not in the totally anti burka group. I find the suggestion that women only wearing the burka at home as a starting point a strange one.

I worked with children and families. I couldn’t have done my work if I chose to wear a burka. It would have offended many people I was paid to serve. How could I attempt to build a relationship with a vulnerable, frightened, child or adult if they couldn’t see my body language, my face, my eyes?
Women can choose to wear a burka but must accept that choice dominates and excludes others.

GrannySomerset

Accurate as always, Monica, but we are being coerced into feeling that our hard-won female freedoms are less important than a culture which is not part of our history. And even suggesting that this is a problem is castigated as somehow racist.

And how are my hard fought freedoms threatened by a relatively small number of women choosing to wear the burka in the UK? I just don't get it.

Post after post assuming it's an attack on our culture, by generalising from burka wearing - either directly or subtly - to Muslims as a whole group, yes, is racist.

Because those who do are "othering" Muslims into "us" and "them". not seeing us all as human beings with very different lives and choices. This is racism.

May I introduce you to my Muslim hairdresser who does follow her faith but wears western dress at work by choice and whatever she chooses out of work? She is third generation Pakistani, like many others, educated here, wide range of friends (and a lovely Dad, btw)

Of course, it does exclude women being able to work in many areas of work, but thats part of a complex number of choices.