An interesting slant on the wearing of a burqa.

But banning it is taking away a woman’s right to decide what she will wear.

However much it is true that women only wear them because the males of their culture demand it, nothing is improved for women by turning that cultural pressure into law that makes choice of clothing a criminal act.

This is exactly what people are deploring in other countries. Women’s lack of freedom enshrined in law.

I'd like to see a ban on underwear as a clothing choice by young women on a night out.

Lathyrus3

But banning it is taking away a woman’s right to decide what she will wear.

However much it is true that women only wear them because the males of their culture demand it, nothing is improved for women by turning that cultural pressure into law that makes choice of clothing a criminal act.

This is exactly what people are deploring in other countries. Women’s lack of freedom enshrined in law.

Errrm....last time I looked none of us actually would want to wear one. It wouldnt even cross my mind to translate "womans right to decide what I'd wear" into "Right I want to wear a burka then". Useful bit of cultural adaptation for people to fit in - dress in a British way (ie no burka) - on the list with "speak good English", "learn British customs", etc.

Laughing at starnded's comment re underwear for young women on a night out. Guess it depends what part of the country is in maybe? Whew - though I've certainly seen a few videos of Northern young women out for a night and thought "Crikey! Those skirts are extremely short....much shorter and one could see their knickers. Oh whoops - I can see that one's knickers". Left me wondering whether southern women dress that way too on a night out these days (though we certainly never used to back in my heyday) - though I don't think so. I wouldnt want to dress that way personally - as I'd not want men thinking I'd go in for the sort of very casual "relationships" I see sometimes. Blow "situationships" (or less) for a lark imo and I'd be one of the women in their alternative clothing personally (ie loose-fit trousers or tight-fit jeans) - but it would be still very much our normal clothing and obviously MY choice.

I'm still struggling with the idea a woman would dress in a burka from (genuinely) her own freewill choice. I can understand some clothing - eg that short dress with matching trousers outfit some Indian women wear can be very attractive and I've looked at some of them enviously (but that seemed to definitely be their own free choice - and that sort of clothing wouldnt restrict anyone). But wearing clothing that restricts your visibility/makes you unrecognisable/is a safety hazard/etc = puzzled 'r us that anyone would choose to without being pressurised into it.

The other downside of that is from our point of view - as I've seen several accounts of British women being harassed by men in Britain (!) for not "dressing modestly" and if they manage to get other women all into that clothing - would they think we should wear it too?. Not happened to me ever - no-one will spot a man walking round with a huge slap mark on his face and wonder if I've just had that stunt pulled on me and that was the result (ie the slap mark on his face) or looking to see if we actually have any such thing as a policeman around to report him to for harassment.

The more we resist other women being forced into restrictive clothing = the greater the protection for us as well that no-one tries that one on on us. Yep....that's the way things could go if burqas remain allowed - there might be pressure on US to dress differently to what we'd decided on. Would take a man that liked living dangerously to try it on some of us (like me for instance).....but we've already seen a few incidents of a British woman being harassed for dressing in a perfectly ordinary way.

It is choicey choice feminism, i.e as long as women are free to choose it is ok. This fails to take into account that some choices are very limited for some people, and also that those who can make the choice may be impacting those who can't.

But banning it is taking away a woman’s right to decide what she will wear.

But her "rights" are already taken away. Is the point, surely?
When males "enforce" it, in their culture.

And there are more in the 2nd group than in the first, so sum total is less women have their rights taken away.

butterandjam wrote

Other Moslem women in UK have an entirely opposing POV, based on their different experience. Inform yourself;

voiceofbritishmuslimwomen.co.uk/2024/11/23/ban-the-burqa/

How can we be sure and certain that any Moslem woman saying "Yes it's okay to restrict me" is really speaking with her own voice - or whether she's being pressurised to say "Restrictive garb is okay by me"?

The link above, written by a Moslem, contains the answer and addresses exactly that point.

As you would know if you read it.

Galaxy

It is choicey choice feminism, i.e as long as women are free to choose it is ok. This fails to take into account that some choices are very limited for some people, and also that those who can make the choice may be impacting those who can't.

I don't think it's anything to do with choicy choice.

People can wear what they like.

Lots of interesting responses here and thank you all.

My question in the OP was however is to ascertain if women of other cultures are seen as “available” because they are not covered?

I'll believe women are happy to wear the burqa when it is made in light floaty material in pretty colours, and does not obscure the face and require a metal framework to support it on the head. Also, the males in the family also wear eastern type clothes when leaving the house.

In N Ireland we also have some strict ideas as in some ares girls are banned from wearing trousers to school.Also some children are not allowed to wear a coat! Dark ages here.

I saw women in black burqua’s all through the hot weather, their husbands however sported jeans and t shirts. Ban them. I dont want to engage with anyone not seeing their faces. Women are equal here.

kircubbin2000

In N Ireland we also have some strict ideas as in some ares girls are banned from wearing trousers to school.Also some children are not allowed to wear a coat! Dark ages here.

Crikey! to girls not allowed to wear trousers to school!!! It would have been the late 1960s when I was wearing trousers to school in England!!! Once we got to the 6th form for sure = wear exactly what you please.

Not allowed to wear a coat! - how do they even enforce that? I'm shocked the parents don't kick up about that. If I were a parent in that position I'd either be making a mockery of that rule (ie "Dear child of mine - hand me your coat 1' away from the school gate before you go in it" or hitting back via the school governors). I wouldnt let it sit - and I'm someone who isnt a child person. I'm the sort of person that, if I had a child, would have made sure I was one of the school governors...

How on earth can they treat them that way - over 50 years after I was treated much better than that in an English school? Gawd - I still remember at intervals talking to a young girl here in Wales coming back from school (not far off due to leave it) and she was shivering in the cold wind without a coat whilst we both waited for a bus (which, I gather, in her case the reason was her mother couldnt afford it and she said she was leaving school in a few months anyway). Nice young girl - and I was shocked by that and by the way she'd just accepted that - and I still think back and kick myself that I didn't just turn round and insist she was having £20 I could have easily enough spared - and was to use it to go round the charity shops and find herself one for that few months...rather than doing without....and I feel guilty that I didnt. I think I was so surprised that her mother didnt get her that thing she so obviously needed. But - yep....you don't just forbid someone wearing an item of clothing they obviously need.

kircubbin2000

In N Ireland we also have some strict ideas as in some ares girls are banned from wearing trousers to school.Also some children are not allowed to wear a coat! Dark ages here.

My granddaughter school insists girls wear trousers.

Sago

Lots of interesting responses here and thank you all.

My question in the OP was however is to ascertain if women of other cultures are seen as “available” because they are not covered?

Here's a question. Are young women who are drunk or on drugs staggering about at night wearing next to nothing seen as " available?"

I wasn't allowed to wear trousers to school in the first part of the 1970s, and I was a teacher. Quite common them, even though the young Indian girls wore trousers or shalwar kameez.

I really don’t like the term ‘available’, if a young man drunk or otherwise wanted to have sex he wouldn’t be called ‘available’. Women who want a varied and active sex life should feel able to pursue that, and whatever other cultures or more importantly our own tends to think about that is up to them. It is when men cross the line, and men of all backgrounds can do this, believing a woman who dresses a certain way or acts a certain way is asking for it. No woman is available and if she wants to have casual sex with a man she will make that clear, and if she doesn’t then she is not giving consent.

Remember little Sara who was made to wear a burka by her evil father to hide her bruises he had inflicted on her. No child in this country should have to wear these flowing black robes and face coverings.

Some of them even make baby girls wear face coverings. That is grotesque.

starnded

Sago

Lots of interesting responses here and thank you all.

My question in the OP was however is to ascertain if women of other cultures are seen as “available” because they are not covered?

Here's a question. Are young women who are drunk or on drugs staggering about at night wearing next to nothing seen as " available?"

What on earth are you implying.

Primrose53

Remember little Sara who was made to wear a burka by her evil father to hide her bruises he had inflicted on her. No child in this country should have to wear these flowing black robes and face coverings.

Some of them even make baby girls wear face coverings. That is grotesque.

Oh yes - that poor little girl....#shudders with how she was treated.

Sago

starnded

Sago

Lots of interesting responses here and thank you all.

My question in the OP was however is to ascertain if women of other cultures are seen as “available” because they are not covered?

Here's a question. Are young women who are drunk or on drugs staggering about at night wearing next to nothing seen as " available?"

What on earth are you implying.

If a young girl is both staggering around and wearing very little clothing = she is still supposed to be able to consider herself safe - obviously.

Not to mention that I'm so glad drink spiking wasnt around back in my early "dating days" and so I could safely leave a drink unattended if need be. But these days - how would we know whether a girl was drunk on the one hand or had had her drink spiked on the other hand? I wouldnt know how to tell the difference - but I do know, from my own experience (many years back now) that even a suitably-dressed reasonably covered-up young woman that hasn't had many drinks can land up with some badly-intentioned man hitting on her. No woman should be seen as "available" and my own personal experience tells me one may not get the help one should from the people one should (cue for a long ago New Years Eve party in a "local" pub and I realised (yep that intuition again) when the man I was dancing with went to the loo - it hit me he was a woman-beater - but would the friend I was with stop partying and give me a lift home quick before he re-emerged? Would she heck as like - and I literally had to order her very firmly that she "WOULD give me a lift NOW. I am in danger" before Little Miss Self-absorbed had to accept I was going to escape and she was going to help whether she wanted to or no - and he did chase after me with his fists flying and feet kicking - but it was her car that got attacked and not me. Friendship over the second I got out of her car safe but shaking - with no apology from her for not being very helpful of another woman (her so-called friend - me).

So - no woman is "available" (no matter what she's wearing/what she's drinking/etc/etc) unless she says she is incontrovertibly.

My town has a large population of people of Pakistani, Muslim people. The burka is worn more often with the passing of time.
Some comments here suggest the posters have limited experience of living and working with this community.

I don’t see how banning the burka would help women or girls in the community. I couldn’t support such a ban. The article in the daily mail was one article from one woman, it was a personal point of view, based on her personal experience. It’s nonsense to suggest it reflects the majority view.

Many women report choosing the burka as it gives them freedom.

How?

How do they reckon it "gives them freedom"? Struggles to figure a reason for feeling freer when being restricted.....

Do they mean "freedom - because my husband will kick off if I go out without one" - so they mean the freedom to go out that we all have anyway?

Message deleted by Gransnet. Here's a link to our Talk guidelines.

Quite M0nica.

It does make us feel as if we're more "available" than we are - just because we are doing our own thing in our own country.

It is no business of mine how other women dress, be they Muslim (yes, I have lived in several areas with a strong Muslim influence) or nuns (yes, I used to live down the road from a nunnery, well, an ordinary, large house where nuns lived) or Indian women in saris etc