An interesting slant on the wearing of a burqa.

I want to clarify why I consider some aspects of this discussion as racist. I am quoting here, because it’s expressed far better than I can say, but contains the thoughts I’ve been having

Summary:
Arguments that UK discussions on wearing the burka are racist or Islamophobic centre on the idea that the focus on this specific garment is disproportionate, perpetuates negative stereotypes about Muslim women, and contributes to a climate of fear and discrimination

Disproportionate Focus Only a tiny percentage of Muslim women in the UK wear the full face veil (an estimated 3,000-5,000 women, or less than 1% of the female Muslim population), yet the topic receives extensive political and media attention. Critics argue this focus is designed to stoke cultural divisions rather than address a widespread social issue.

Stereotyping and Othering The debate often frames the burka as an image of "otherness" and a refusal to integrate into "British values," which contributes to the homogenisation and demonisation of Muslims as a single, problematic group.

Ignoring Muslim Women's Voices Discussions frequently involve non-Muslim politicians and commentators debating the "liberation" of Muslim women, while the voices of the women who actually wear the niqab or burka (often by choice, for reasons of modesty, privacy, or personal faith) are sidelined or ignored.

Fueling Hate Crime High-profile, negative comments by public figures (such as former Prime Minister Boris Johnson's comparison of wearers to "letterboxes" or "bank robbers") have been linked to significant spikes in real-world Islamophobic incidents, including verbal and physical abuse, disproportionately targeting visibly Muslim women.

Paternalism and Control Opponents of a ban argue that attempts to force women not to wear the burka are a form of paternalistic control, paradoxically limiting the freedom of choice they claim to champion and potentially confining women to their homes if they do not wish to remove their coverings in public.

Inconsistency in Criticism Critics note an inconsistency in the focus on the burka compared to other religious garments, such as a nun's habit or an Orthodox Jewish woman's attire, suggesting the issue is specifically with Muslims rather than face coverings in general

We’ve just had one actual Muslim women’s voice, and that was a on page one: here is another: its old, but relevant

www.stylist.co.uk/speak-up/muslim-woman-women-burqa-burka-boris-johnson-xenophobia-islam-islamophobia-debate-mariam-khan-speak-up/221767

Here is a longer article, but if you speed read through, really does cover these points.

irep.ntu.ac.uk/id/eprint/35508/1/13032_Zempi.pdf

3,000 to 5,000? !
I didn’t realise it was so many.
They will never integrate in our society by wearing a full face veil.
Why on earth would women actually choose such stricture for themselves? Because they were used to it in the country they came from and/or the men in the family want them to.
That’s up to 5,000 women not taking part in wider society in the UK.
And no, it most definitely isn’t racist to want women to fully take part in all our country has to offer them, so stop all the racist accusations which are sheer nonsense.

Catholic nuns and Orthodox Jewish women don’t have their faces completely obscured as in burqa wearing so there’s no comparison.

Burqa wearing isn’t a religious requirement either it’s purely a cultural thing.The taliban love women to wear them.

I seem to have inadvertently entered an echo chamber.

I dont believe integration excludes expressions of difference, a multicultural society is one where we live together but have different ways of expressing ourselves.

It has always struck me that a good thing about UK society actually appreciates the "Eccentric" and "Unusual" when it comes to many life choices.

British eccentricity is a sort of national penchant for non-conformity, quirkiness, and individualism, visible in everything from eccentric historical figures to interior design and social and religious customs, with a good dose, at best, of a sense of humour about it.

Oreo

Catholic nuns and Orthodox Jewish women don’t have their faces completely obscured as in burqa wearing so there’s no comparison.

I would argue with most of what *Wyllow3 has said.

To expand on what Oreo has said. These days most catholic nuns do not wear any kind of head covering, and have not for most of the last 50 yeas, when they do, it usually does not even cover their hair. It is more of a short 'uniform' head covering whose purpose is to reveals their status, much as nurses used to wear caps.

To me, for any group of people to cover themselves up in public so that their face cannot be seen, are choosing to reject all the rights that group have as part of the civic and social life of the country.

For so many things we need to see a face and recognise it - driving licences, passports, voting.

And as I said before, what about respect for the traditions of this country, or indeed western Europe, a tradition that venerates the head, most heroes are shown bareheaded, the wind blowing through their hair. For Europe face covering is utilitarian and reserved for physical protection from injury.

I would not ban the burqa, but I would expect that those who chose to wear it to accept the limitations it will impose on their civic lives.

Here is a 2025 report of a Muslim Womens conference, a bang up to date reflection of the move earlier this year to ban the burka

“Syeda Ahmad also further raised concerns over how these renewed calls for a ban on face-covering clothes will impact upon Muslim women and girls.

If you’re actually concerned about Muslim women and how we might be feeling, one of the worst things you can do is project your own prejudices and assumptions onto us she said.
“We’ve seen in other European countries that have introduced things like hijab bans or burka bans – we know from research that only serves to alienate Muslim women.

nation.cymru/news/uk-muslim-women-concerned-over-negative-attitudes-toward-hijab/

I do accept - and they accept - that the choice to never remove it will mean limitations on civic lives. but we cannot assume this to be the case (ie never remove it)

but its their choice

Yes the same arguments are used about all sorts of oppression of women. If people are calling you names then usually it is the right sort of feminism. I personally can't keep up with the number of hate crimes I have been responsible for.
Do people actually think these words have any power any more

Uigur women have been imprisoned for trying to wear their traditional costume.
Any sort of coercion is wrong.

Which principle is more important,
making people wear what WE approve of,
or allowing them to wear what THEY wish to wear?

It is about approval it is about values.

Strange world we live in: in regard to the O/P and "does it make men think of women being more sexually available etc"

Go into many town or city centres on a weekend night and see women wearing next to nothing: its their choice: I don't have a problem with it: but as women and legally in the UK we do not assume that gives men the right to attack or abuse

Some very strange thinking in regards to that aspect of the O/P and it is indeed unquestionably a racist meme to me at least.

The OP stated quite clearly she was in two minds about the banning of the burqa and sited evidence in support of both sides. She then asked, 'what do you think?'

That to me is not a racist meme but a balanced introduction to an issue of concern.

I googled do any Muslim countries ban the burqa? This is just a sample of what I discovered.

Several Muslim-majority countries have banned or restricted the burqa and full-face veils, including Tajikistan, Kyrgyzstan, and Chad. Other Muslim-majority countries with some form of ban include Tunisia and Azerbaijan, while countries like Turkey have gradually lifted restrictions on headscarves in state institutions. Many of these bans are often tied to security concerns or a desire to counter Islamist extremism.

Galaxy

It is about approval it is about values.

I value humanity and choice and good humour.

Ok.

Wyllow3

Strange world we live in: in regard to the O/P and "does it make men think of women being more sexually available etc"

Go into many town or city centres on a weekend night and see women wearing next to nothing: its their choice: I don't have a problem with it: but as women and legally in the UK we do not assume that gives men the right to attack or abuse

Some very strange thinking in regards to that aspect of the O/P and it is indeed unquestionably a racist meme to me at least.

The question was posed by Khadija Khan not by Sago.

Strange that you assume it is racist when it was posed by a woman of Pakistani and Muslim heritage.

Khadija Khan is a feminist, independent journalist and commentator. She is originally from Pakistan, but left the country after she criticised religious fundamentalism

It is religious fundamentalism and the forcing of women to wear the burqa that she is questioning in this country which values freedom.

Errrm...just one little point too - there have been instances of people of bad intention (thieves? terrorists?) deciding to wear a burka as a disguise. Yep...men in a burka -

Allira

Wyllow3

Strange world we live in: in regard to the O/P and "does it make men think of women being more sexually available etc"

Go into many town or city centres on a weekend night and see women wearing next to nothing: its their choice: I don't have a problem with it: but as women and legally in the UK we do not assume that gives men the right to attack or abuse

Some very strange thinking in regards to that aspect of the O/P and it is indeed unquestionably a racist meme to me at least.

The question was posed by Khadija Khan not by Sago.

Strange that you assume it is racist when it was posed by a woman of Pakistani and Muslim heritage.

Khadija Khan is a feminist, independent journalist and commentator. She is originally from Pakistan, but left the country after she criticised religious fundamentalism

It is religious fundamentalism and the forcing of women to wear the burqa that she is questioning in this country which values freedom.

I thought that would be brought up.

1. It is only one voice among many, it is not "the word of all Muslim women

2. We have not even seen the whole of the original article, just a very brief report of the article

I'd like to read it in full, as well as alternative Musilm womens view on it.

We've spent 6 pages on the basis of a word of mouth summary from one poster on one article

*which we haven't seen in full8, as in the reasons for her views, .....any essential qualifying points she makes to the contrary of her main points....... are not available to us

a very dodgy basis to say "all Muslim women" blah blah. Very dodgy indeed.

Excuse my grammar! Must pre-write more, but you get the gist.

No, I don't.

I also think it's worth considering where the article was.

The Daily Mail is bound to choose to report a POV that is congruent with its own values - and not any others

An alternative: "Many Muslim women, such as UK mother-of-seven Tahira Noor and activist Lila Tamea, have spoken out in defence of a woman's right to choose to wear the burka or niqab, arguing it is a matter of personal freedom, modesty, and religious expression, not oppression" (wiki)

Women wear a burka for different reasons.

For religious reasons where the Koran is interpreted very conservatively and dressing modestly is taken to its extreme level.

Culturally it is worn in some parts of the world, simply because it has been worn by women for generations.

Women will make it a personal choice to wear a burka, for a number of reasons, in countries where wearing a burka is not traditional. I suspect a number of young women will adopt this form of dress in order to make a statement. I doubt that this will last.

Lastly It is worn because of familial expectation or the law as in Afghanistan

There are all sorts of religious practices by the world religions - some to my mind pretty bizarre. FGM and Male circumcision being a couple of examples. But many others.

Wearing a particular garment seems pretty innocuous against other practices imo, many of which are pretty horrendous.

eazybee

The OP stated quite clearly she was in two minds about the banning of the burqa and sited evidence in support of both sides. She then asked, 'what do you think?'

That to me is not a racist meme but a balanced introduction to an issue of concern.

What two points of view?

The feminist POV that women should be free to wear what they choose is not alluded to.