An interesting slant on the wearing of a burqa.

I am free to wear a t-shirt which states women belong in kitchen. Womens choices don't always equal feminism. As I have said I am unsure of a ban because it the reasons lathyrus mentioned but I am not going to pretend that choice is any kind of feminism.

A main disadvantage of the burqa is that it hides the wearer so completely that any new personal relationship is almost impossible. Therefor in the professional setting such as education or medicine wearing a burqa should not be permitted.

This is a matter for professional ethics not a matter for private persons. A does not need to look at B's face. Indeed at this time when a beautiful woman is still treated as a sex object or as some man's property it's best that she protect herself against impertinent gaze from either sex.

Alternatively she can shame the devil and dress as outrageously as the law allows. The fault is with the power imbalance of women and men not with the burqa. The burqa is the ultimate symbol of women protecting themselves against the existential power of men.
Making the burqa illegal would not augment the power of women, but would remove one of her safeguards.

You have just argued what the op expressed in her first post. That if women don't cover themselves they aren't safe.

Oh dear, Caleo. what on earth have feminists been doing but arguing that women are not "available" according to what they wear.

It's relatively recently that the Police and CPS have got over the old argument "she asked for it because she dressed in such and such" "she provoked me".

Oreo

3,000 to 5,000? !
I didn’t realise it was so many.
They will never integrate in our society by wearing a full face veil.
Why on earth would women actually choose such stricture for themselves? Because they were used to it in the country they came from and/or the men in the family want them to.
That’s up to 5,000 women not taking part in wider society in the UK.
And no, it most definitely isn’t racist to want women to fully take part in all our country has to offer them, so stop all the racist accusations which are sheer nonsense.

There is a tendency on this forum to see racism where none exists.

Am I missing something? Has ‘Muslim’ now changed to ‘Moslem’? If so, why?

There can be great tendency on this forum be blind to racism in its most subtle forms.

One form is to discuss women form another culture in a patronising manner thinking we know best, but not listening or making an effort to listen to the many different voices from that culture.

Some of the loudest voices campaigning for men in female spaces were women (actual women) I listened to them and decided I didn't agree with them. Same here.

Wyllow3

There can be great tendency on this forum be blind to racism in its most subtle forms.

One form is to discuss women form another culture in a patronising manner thinking we know best, but not listening or making an effort to listen to the many different voices from that culture.

I have read the full article and understand the oppression described. I did not feel I was being patronising and it did not occur to me to read any articles by other women with maybe different points of view. i suppose I cannot understand why any woman would want to cover her hair or ears, thereby not being able to hear or eat so comfortably.

Lathyrus3

Legislation to control what women where s legislation to control what women wear.

Which country it is in is irrelevant. It’s legislation to control what women wear.

I’m willing to listen to any rational argument as to why governments should control what women wear and why this is not misogynistic.

I agree and what should be happening is legislation to help ALL women who are coerced into wearing what their husband/ partner tells them.

Whitewavemark2

Women wear a burka for different reasons.

For religious reasons where the Koran is interpreted very conservatively and dressing modestly is taken to its extreme level.

Culturally it is worn in some parts of the world, simply because it has been worn by women for generations.

Women will make it a personal choice to wear a burka, for a number of reasons, in countries where wearing a burka is not traditional. I suspect a number of young women will adopt this form of dress in order to make a statement. I doubt that this will last.

Lastly It is worn because of familial expectation or the law as in Afghanistan

There are all sorts of religious practices by the world religions - some to my mind pretty bizarre. FGM and Male circumcision being a couple of examples. But many others.

Wearing a particular garment seems pretty innocuous against other practices imo, many of which are pretty horrendous.

Good points raised the circumcision thing - imo male circumcision is one thing and has health advantages etc.

But female circumcision = unmitigated evil practice and it could be said that "they chose it - it's up to them" or, given the agegroup concerned "their representative - ie a relative - chose it and so it's up to them" but I have yet to see any articles at all by any woman from those countries that do this saying "Yep...I agree with what my relative chose on my behalf". They just don't - they say instead how awful it was/lifelong effects from it etc. Sometimes Society (well certainly a more modern advanced society) has to choose on peoples behalf - ie banning FGM and banning the burka.

CariadAgain

You are missing WWM's point.

You are equating wearing the burka in some way with FGM,

that banning FGM (which of course has to be done, it is a particularly horrendous physical assult on a girl child)

is on a par with an item of clothing that a woman, if she chooses to wear it is not in itself an oppressive choice by a woman,

By linking them you are attempting to argue that we force women not to wear a burka by law

Very obvious

very obnoxious, to force your views on Muslim women via the law..

No way....I think we all (most of us) see it as trying to protect them from someone else bullying them into it.

Whitewavemark2

Women wear a burka for different reasons.

For religious reasons where the Koran is interpreted very conservatively and dressing modestly is taken to its extreme level.

Culturally it is worn in some parts of the world, simply because it has been worn by women for generations.

Women will make it a personal choice to wear a burka, for a number of reasons, in countries where wearing a burka is not traditional. I suspect a number of young women will adopt this form of dress in order to make a statement. I doubt that this will last.

Lastly It is worn because of familial expectation or the law as in Afghanistan

There are all sorts of religious practices by the world religions - some to my mind pretty bizarre. FGM and Male circumcision being a couple of examples. But many others.

Wearing a particular garment seems pretty innocuous against other practices imo, many of which are pretty horrendous.

I agree on the whole, Whitewave except, as far as I know, there is no requirement in the Qaran for a women to wear a burqa.

Please correct me if I'm wrong.

Choice is one thing but control and coercion are wrong.

excuse typo.
Quran

Ethnocentricity occurs when an individual assumes that their cultural norms are the only correct standard.
I would not wear a burka.
Also, I would not forbid a woman to wear one.
Also I would not agree with a woman being forced to wear one.

That about sums it up Maremia!

Also, I would not forbid a woman to wear one.
with the proviso that they should not be worn in certain circumstances where facial recognition is required.

Yes Allira, remove the face covering for practical and or legal reasons, when required.

The cultural norms in France, Britain, Germany, etc are better than the cultural norms in Afghanistan, Iran, etc. If that makes me ethnocentric I can live with that.

It does

And so are most of us.
It's not a 'bad' thing. Just something to be aware of when judging other cultures, and not the same as racism.

Im at a loss to see any connection between FGM and a large flappy outergarment.

Allira

Whitewavemark2

Women wear a burka for different reasons.

For religious reasons where the Koran is interpreted very conservatively and dressing modestly is taken to its extreme level.

Culturally it is worn in some parts of the world, simply because it has been worn by women for generations.

Women will make it a personal choice to wear a burka, for a number of reasons, in countries where wearing a burka is not traditional. I suspect a number of young women will adopt this form of dress in order to make a statement. I doubt that this will last.

Lastly It is worn because of familial expectation or the law as in Afghanistan

There are all sorts of religious practices by the world religions - some to my mind pretty bizarre. FGM and Male circumcision being a couple of examples. But many others.

Wearing a particular garment seems pretty innocuous against other practices imo, many of which are pretty horrendous.

I agree on the whole, Whitewave except, as far as I know, there is no requirement in the Qaran for a women to wear a burqa.

Please correct me if I'm wrong.

Choice is one thing but control and coercion are wrong.

I am not a follower of the Islamic faith, and have not read the Koran.

I do not know where in the Koran it talks about modest dress for both men and women.

I do know however, that every single faith on earth is open to interpretation, and indeed is interpretated in different ways by its followers, so a Christian has different interpretations, Hindus also, and Jews again have different faiths amongst every other faith.

People of each faith are perfectly entitled to interpret guidance in ways they deem fit, and looking from the outside I do find some rules oppressive and irrational. So the ban on birth control I find utterly irrational, the attitude of some Islamic and Judaism towards dogs I find peculiar, and admire that Hinduism revers them.

None of the interpretations imv are based on rationality, but I accept people feel very strongly about their different faiths.

It is a fascinating subject, and the way these believes have grown and developed and changed over the millennia is worthy of study imo.

The other side of this discussion is how would we response if someone, male of female decided to wear no clothes at all, ouside or in?

A ma did try to do this some years ago www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-29800016 and go very short shrift, even from the European Court of Human Rights, who said in their ruling

"Article 10 does not go so far as to enable individuals, even those sincerely convinced of the virtue of their own beliefs, to repeatedly impose their antisocial conduct on other, unwilling members of society and then to claim a disproportionate interference with the exercise of their freedom of expression when the state, in the performance of its duty to protect the public from public nuisances, enforces the law in respect of such deliberately repetitive antisocial conduct."

This words could also be used as a response to anyone objecting to the banning of burqas.

Maremia this possible answers your question Which principle is more important, making people wear what WE approve of, or allowing them to wear what THEY wish to wear?

As for^I do accept - and they accept - that the choice to never remove it will mean limitations on civic lives. but we cannot assume this to be the case (ie never remove it) - but its their choice^

I wonder how long for before those wearing burqas were up before the supreme court claiming that they had a right to choose to wear a burqa and have full civic rights.

We are told of around 35 million women in this country 2-3,000 wear a burqa. It is a tiny problem and there are so many more egregious traansgressions on our liberties to publicise.