Let us hope that Johnson has finally learned some lessons.

So are you suggesting that all those who died had only themselves to blame JenniferEccles? [Mon 31-May-21 11:21:10]

Why do some people always turn to victim blaming in order to excuse the government?

No I am not blaming everyone, just stating the fact that our relatively high death toll is due to multiple factors, one of which , obesity, is entirely preventable,

JenniferEccles

No I am not blaming everyone, just stating the fact that our relatively high death toll is due to multiple factors, one of which , obesity, is entirely preventable,

I thought Johnson was going to do something about that after his own dice with death (most probably due to his own obesity). But have heard nothing about it since his initial announcement. Just as he doesn’t seem to have tackled his own obesity. He strikes me as someone totally lacking in any sort of self control.

Boris Johnson has been losing weight steadily since he was ill. I thought how much slimmer he’s looking when I saw the wedding pictures. He’s obviously had enough self control to lose weight. Mind you, I’ve always thought that might be down to Carrie’s influence. It’s been obvious for a long time that he was losing weight.

Baggs

I presume the people who had covid (but without anyone knowing this) and who were discharged to care homes and then died, had gone into hospital with other health issues (possibly ones that were going to be causes of their deaths anyway, regardless of covid, (the average of death from covid during the early part of the pandemic in UK was higher than the usual average) and caught covid in hospital. I've yet to unferstand how that was fault of the PM, of any PM.

So they were old and going to die anyway so it doesn’t matter? Like my friend who had a fall, went to hospital, was sent to a care home where she caught covid and died. But hey, she was 96 so was going to die at some point.

JenniferEccles

No I am not blaming everyone, just stating the fact that our relatively high death toll is due to multiple factors, one of which , obesity, is entirely preventable,

Well that's interesting Dr. Eccles. I'm sure all those who have put on weight due to a health condition, or the medication they are taking for one, will be thrilled to know that they could have prevented it - if only they had your will power to make them well

Well we are all going to die at some point, and a 96 year old is more likely to die sooner than later. This is a fact of life. Actually my mother had a fall in December and was admitted to hospital with a head injury. She caught Covid in hospital and did not die. She’s back in her sheltered apartment and she’s coming to a barbecue this afternoon at my house. She’s 93!
One swallow does not a summer make. In actual fact most 90 pluses who caught Covid recovered. Sadly also many of all ages died, though of course the older a Covid sufferer, the more likely they were to die.

She didn’t deserve to die in that way. How bloody insensitive.

Sorry if it sounded insensitive. I’m very sorry for your loss Maybee.

I know you didn’t. She was only in the care home temporarily after a fall. She was the most young at heart person I’ve ever known. It makes me so angry.....

MayBee70

Baggs

I presume the people who had covid (but without anyone knowing this) and who were discharged to care homes and then died, had gone into hospital with other health issues (possibly ones that were going to be causes of their deaths anyway, regardless of covid, (the average of death from covid during the early part of the pandemic in UK was higher than the usual average) and caught covid in hospital. I've yet to unferstand how that was fault of the PM, of any PM.

So they were old and going to die anyway so it doesn’t matter? Like my friend who had a fall, went to hospital, was sent to a care home where she caught covid and died. But hey, she was 96 so was going to die at some point.

Where did I say it didn't matter, Maybee?

The fact is that we were told in the early part of the pandemic that the virus was most dangerous for old people and for people with comorbidities. Recognising this fact makes it less easy to blame those in government and this would still be true if the government were of a different political bent.

Though, actually, since mattering is under discussion, I didn't think it 'mattered' when my mother died shortly before her ninetieth birthday (not of covid; she died before we'd heard of it). I thought it a natural progression of the sort one just has to accept. This did not affect the grieving process for me or my siblings.

On the other hand, when my father died at a much younger age somehow it did 'matter' more. It affected us all a lot more (including our mother) because there was an element of 'unnatural' about it given that he was relatively young.

I think this is the same as people finding the deaths of people in younger generations (children, for instance) harder to accept, to 'deal with'.

This is my opinion formed from my personal experience. The opinions of others may vary but that doesn't make my opinion wrong or offensive.

So ppl can back off with their ?

Care homes were supposed to be ‘ring fenced’ (whatever that means) for that very reason. But they weren’t. So, if the government aren’t to blame, who is?

Baggs

MayBee70

Baggs

I presume the people who had covid (but without anyone knowing this) and who were discharged to care homes and then died, had gone into hospital with other health issues (possibly ones that were going to be causes of their deaths anyway, regardless of covid, (the average of death from covid during the early part of the pandemic in UK was higher than the usual average) and caught covid in hospital. I've yet to unferstand how that was fault of the PM, of any PM.

So they were old and going to die anyway so it doesn’t matter? Like my friend who had a fall, went to hospital, was sent to a care home where she caught covid and died. But hey, she was 96 so was going to die at some point.

Where did I say it didn't matter, Maybee?

The fact is that we were told in the early part of the pandemic that the virus was most dangerous for old people and for people with comorbidities. Recognising this fact makes it less easy to blame those in government and this would still be true if the government were of a different political bent.

So the government knowing that covid was most dangerous to the sick and elderly, gave instructions to hospitals to clear the decks ready for the covid onslaught, by sending the elderly and sick with covid untested-into the community and to where there was a large population of elderly.

Surely anyone with the information they had to hand and yet still acted as they did is guilty of manslaughter?

Baggs and Maybee are right. The grieving process is the same for an older person as for a younger person, although I think society finds it harder to accept the death of younger people, especially children. No one deserved to die from Covid, but many did, young and old alike. Of course, many, many more older people as Covid is more dangerous to older people. Maybee be kind to yourself, you are grieving a dear friend, and although at 96 she was obviously near the end of her life with or without Covid, the grief feels the same. for you.

Baggs

I presume the people who had covid (but without anyone knowing this) and who were discharged to care homes and then died, had gone into hospital with other health issues (possibly ones that were going to be causes of their deaths anyway, regardless of covid, (the average of death from covid during the early part of the pandemic in UK was higher than the usual average) and caught covid in hospital. I've yet to unferstand how that was fault of the PM, of any PM.

I have re-read this post several times and wonder why you are missing the point that the covid infected care home residents who were discharged from hospital back to the care homes, without being tested, then passed covid around to other residents and to staff. This was at the insistence of the government.

It really wasn't a 'they would have died anyway' point at all.

I also seem to remember that there was a national shortage of PPE at the time which made procuring PPE for care homes very difficult. This didn't help to lower the infection rate in care homes, either

The fact is that we were told in the early part of the pandemic that the virus was most dangerous for old people and for people with comorbidities. Recognising this fact makes it less easy to blame those in government and this would still be true if the government were of a different political bent.

So, the question is, why didn't the government have especial care to those very vulnerable people? Why did it insist on discharging covid carrying residents from hospital into their care homes?

You cannot absolve the government from blame by saying it would have been inevitable whatever colour the government. It was totally irresponsible and, while no more than many of us expect from this particular government, it is likely that another government, even one of the same colour, would have acted with more care.

One of the features of deaths from Covid is that those in the more disadvantaged areas suffered the highest death rates. I think the huge disparity between the the richest and poorest in our society is shameful, and is the result of a political ideology.

As to care home deaths, social care has been in a deplorable state for years, with the government unwilling to tackle it. Even before Covid the elderly were queuing up in hospital waiting for discharge to suitable Care. This of course was exacerbated in the urgent need for beds, and care homes were not properly prepared with appropriate PPE or isolating facilities, plus a chronic shortage of staff. Was clearly a disaster waiting to happen.

Also I think many who were ill with Covid, such as Michael Rosen, in the early stages of the pandemic, received inappropriate advice to stay at home, when hospital treatment was needed, but hospitals were overwhelmed. Again the NHS was in a very poor state prior to Covid.

All these failings did not occur by accident, although of course the pandemic was unexpected.

All these failings did not occur by accident, although of course the pandemic was unexpected.

No crisis situation is ever 'expected'. I'm sick of hearing how surprised were were by the pandemic. The government should have had an effective pandemic plan in place. That is a government responsibility, to have planning in place for unexpected crises. I've already talked about this topic of emergency planning, either on the previous page or on another thread.

We should expect our government to do its best to keep the population safe The tories don't appear to think it's their job at all.

Do voters have any expectation at all of what a government should do, or do they just put a cross in the box because the possible PM is a good laugh?

“ I have re-read this post several times and wonder why you are missing the point that the covid infected care home residents who were discharged from hospital back to the care homes, without being tested, then passed covid around to other residents and to staff. This was at the insistence of the government.”

Saving the NHS from being overwhelmed. Wasn’t that the mantra?

Good post Greeneyedgirl, but in fact pandemic was expected, had been for some years, but the NHS did not prepare adequately for it. Neither did government.

A pandemic

Data is now appearing that shows that the Indian variant has overtaken the Kent variant in transmissibility. It is now thought that a person with B.1.617.2 is 67% more likely to infect a close contact. It is now dominant in England.
Reported cases have risen by 27% last week, and hospitalisation has risen by 15% since 26th May.

This needs addressing now and not wait until the 21 June.

Johnson must not be allowed to kill more people because of his prevaricating.

Data from Professor Christina Pagel UCL.

Lots of useful charts on her twitter account if you are interested.

You are right MaisieD. The report on Exercise Cygnus (2016) a simulation into preparedness and response for just such a pandemic, did throw up concerns, which clearly were not acted on. One of the concerns was the problem identified of moving patients from hospital to care home facilities to free up beds!

No point in doing such an Exercise if the key learning points are not acted upon and you gamble on it never happening. It is a clear abdication of responsibility.

Baggs

I presume the people who had covid (but without anyone knowing this) and who were discharged to care homes and then died, had gone into hospital with other health issues (possibly ones that were going to be causes of their deaths anyway, regardless of covid, (the average of death from covid during the early part of the pandemic in UK was higher than the usual average) and caught covid in hospital. I've yet to unferstand how that was fault of the PM, of any PM.

The other people in the homes who caught covid are the fault of the PM.