UK are first in Europe with Over 150,000 deaths

growstuff

Anniel

As per usual. Every negative is found. I don’t rely on tabloids. I read WorldOMeters. You are really saying our scientists are rubbish, that the NHS is underfunded etc. However, I want to ask just how much will ever be enough. The NHS gets the most money of any public service so do tell how critics would fund it. I am dissatisfied with Boris too, but I keep thinking that the people at the top of NHS and other civil servants are not always of great calibre and it is not always politicians who are to blame!

I don't think anybody is claiming "our scientists" are rubbish - unless I've missed something. My partner happens to be one of them - and I don't think his work is rubbish (well, I don't think it is anyway). However, I think the public needs to be aware that there all sorts of "scientists" and the ones the media drag out aren't necessarily the most expert and some have an agenda of their own. I think people also need to be aware of the spin put on scientific opinion by journalists and politicians.

PS. The NHS is underfunded compared with other developed countries.

The UK has one of the largest shares of healthcare spending financed through government schemes (79%) (https://www.ons.gov.uk/peoplepopulationandcommunity/healthandsocialcare/healthcaresystem) .
Many countries are part-funding health care through compulsory health insurance

I think growstuff has written an excellent summary and put forward a sensible way forward.

maddyone

I think growstuff has written an excellent summary and put forward a sensible way forward.

Thank you.

dayvidg

growstuff

Anniel

As per usual. Every negative is found. I don’t rely on tabloids. I read WorldOMeters. You are really saying our scientists are rubbish, that the NHS is underfunded etc. However, I want to ask just how much will ever be enough. The NHS gets the most money of any public service so do tell how critics would fund it. I am dissatisfied with Boris too, but I keep thinking that the people at the top of NHS and other civil servants are not always of great calibre and it is not always politicians who are to blame!

I don't think anybody is claiming "our scientists" are rubbish - unless I've missed something. My partner happens to be one of them - and I don't think his work is rubbish (well, I don't think it is anyway). However, I think the public needs to be aware that there all sorts of "scientists" and the ones the media drag out aren't necessarily the most expert and some have an agenda of their own. I think people also need to be aware of the spin put on scientific opinion by journalists and politicians.

PS. The NHS is underfunded compared with other developed countries.

The UK has one of the largest shares of healthcare spending financed through government schemes (79%) (https://www.ons.gov.uk/peoplepopulationandcommunity/healthandsocialcare/healthcaresystem) .
Many countries are part-funding health care through compulsory health insurance

I'm at a loss to understand what you're trying to claim. Here are some quotes from your own link:

Main points

In 2017, the UK spent £2,989 per person on healthcare, which was around the median for members of the Organisation for Economic Co-operation and Development: OECD (£2,913 per person).

However, of the G7 group of large, developed economies, UK healthcare spending per person was the second-lowest, with the highest spenders being France (£3,737), Germany (£4,432) and the United States (£7,736).

As a percentage of GDP, UK healthcare spending fell from 9.8% in 2013 to 9.6% in 2017, while healthcare spending as a percentage of GDP rose for four of the remaining six G7 countries.

In 2017, the UK spent the equivalent of £560 per person on health-related long-term care, which was less than most other northern or western European countries, but a similar amount to France (£569) and Canada (£556).

Growstuff - you claim that the NHS is underfunded compared with other developed nations. My point is that most other developed nations do not have a predominately public funded Health Service. Yes, expenditure per head of population on health is lower in the U.K. but there could be plenty of different reasons for that - maybe costs are higher in countries reliant on insurance schemes (ever taken a car to a garage on an insurance claim?). If the definition of underfunding is income being less than expenditure, fair enough, although that could also be called overspending.

Of course the definition of underfunding is less expenditure. What else could it be?

If you think about it, every single health service is "public funded" in the sense that people pay for it - either through taxation or insurance. It depends whether you think there should be some equality of provision.

It's a fact that the UK doesn't pay as much for healthcare as many other developed countries. The big difference is that in some countries, such as the US, those without the means to pay for healthcare don't get what they need. At least in the UK - for the moment - everybody is getting a basic service.

We don't know how may have died from Covid growstuff.

You posted yesterday that deaths from flu and pneumonia are a third of those who have died from Covid, but we only know how many have died within 28 days of a positive Covid test.

Dying with Covid is not the same as dying from Covid.

Here's a nice graph. I like a nice graph.

In the middle of the worst pandemic in this country for 100 years, excess deaths have been below or only slightly above the 5-year average for the last 9 months. At what point should we actually decide that restrictions aren't worth it any more, because of the damage they do?

(Cue breast beating about Long Covid)

I know the situation is different in Scotland Alegrias, but here in England there really are very few restrictions. We have to wear a mask in public buildings and on public transport, and we have to take a lateral flow test to visit certain places ie. my mother’s care home. If we travel abroad we have to pay for and take a PCR on return. I’m not sure I can think of any other restrictions. I’m sure someone will fill me in if I’ve forgotten something. These very few restrictions don’t really make a difference to anyone’s life but may make a difference to catching Covid, the operative word being may.

Thank you Alegrias1 for that graph because I’ve been monitoring my own county’s deaths from COVID since March 2020.

It appears we’ve had approx 250 deaths (pop 117,000) and even if that figure is doubled due to missing a few “under the bus” that perhaps had it but were untested, it doesn’t seem a lot (sad though it undoubtedly is for the families involved)

I’m absolutely flabbergasted that the whole of Conwy county which depends hugely on tourism, was shut down for the best part of two summers, because of those deaths.

Even now our FM is preaching that travel is not advisable in/out or around Wales (kicking against Boris lifting restrictions purely because of his political views) and I wonder when will Wales ever be free of all restrictions with his mindset.

It appears we’ve had approx 250 deaths (pop 117,000) and even if that figure is doubled due to missing a few “under the bus” that perhaps had it but were untested, it doesn’t seem a lot (sad though it undoubtedly is for the families involved)

I’m absolutely flabbergasted that the whole of Conwy county which depends hugely on tourism, was shut down for the best part of two summers, because of those deaths.

I look at it a different way. Had we not had a lockdown when we did there would have been a lot more deaths than there were. Remember the days when people were dying in ICU all over the world and we had no idea what we were dealing with? Since the emergence and validation of the vaccines it has been a whole different ballgame.

Here’s a decent article which provides age adjusted excess death numbers, which is probably one of the most realistic estimates of the pandemic death toll.
news.sky.com/story/four-different-covid-death-tolls-how-bad-was-mortality-in-2021-compared-to-2020-12513215

Excellent article Casdon, thanks for sharing.

maddyone

I know the situation is different in Scotland Alegrias, but here in England there really are very few restrictions. We have to wear a mask in public buildings and on public transport, and we have to take a lateral flow test to visit certain places ie. my mother’s care home. If we travel abroad we have to pay for and take a PCR on return. I’m not sure I can think of any other restrictions. I’m sure someone will fill me in if I’ve forgotten something. These very few restrictions don’t really make a difference to anyone’s life but may make a difference to catching Covid, the operative word being may.

In England, in addition to what you've listed, people have to work from home if they can, children have to wear masks in school, and vaccine passports are required for certain venues and events.

In Scotland, in addition to this, nightclubs are closed, service is restricted in hospitality venues and the size of audiences at public events is limited. We've been asked to limit our contacts with other households. I'm not sure what the story in in Wales.

All of these are severe restrictions; can you imagine two years ago, if someone had told you that you were going to have to show proof of your health status to go to the cinema? Now while they may have been necessary to begin with, and I agree that they were, its not right to accept that they have to be here and it's for our own good so we best comply. There comes a time when we have to move on because catching Covid now doesn't mean the same as it did two years ago, it's a whole different thing now.

I know you had Covid early on maddyone and I don't mean to minimise that at all, but its a different world now.

“In Scotland, in addition to this, nightclubs are closed, service is restricted in hospitality venues and the size of audiences at public events is limited. We've been asked to limit our contacts with other households. I'm not sure what the story in in Wales.”

Similar Alegrias1 plus Drakeford strongly disapproves of travel in and out of Wales- the only reason he dropped testing requirement before re-entry was he couldn’t control anyone arriving at Liverpool, Manchester, Birmingham and Bristol airports. He certainly wouldn’t trust the English (Boris) to ensure all travellers home to Wales were negative!

On the topic of Long Covid, is there a definition for what it actually is? I have a friend who is now semi-wheelchair bound due to having covid way back at the start of the pandemic. Otoh, I’ve also seen references to LC as still tired three weeks after having had Covid. These seem vastly different scenarios hence my pondering on how LC is recognised and diagnosed.

Alegrias1

Here's a nice graph. I like a nice graph.

In the middle of the worst pandemic in this country for 100 years, excess deaths have been below or only slightly above the 5-year average for the last 9 months. At what point should we actually decide that restrictions aren't worth it any more, because of the damage they do?

(Cue breast beating about Long Covid)

It's difficult to tell from the graph, but it looks to me as though deaths over the last 9 months have consistently been about 2,000 a week above the 5-year average - that's a lot. The last few weeks haven't been plotted.

Oh there's more to be discussed here than is relevant for a Social Media site.

I've been looking at this.

twitter.com/john_actuary

In England, excess deaths with Covid on the death certificate have been over 100 a day in most weeks (apart from w/e ending 24 Dec, when it was only slightly under) for the last two months.

app.powerbi.com/view?r=eyJrIjoiYmUwNmFhMjYtNGZhYS00NDk2LWFlMTAtOTg0OGNhNmFiNGM0IiwidCI6ImVlNGUxNDk5LTRhMzUtNGIyZS1hZDQ3LTVmM2NmOWRlODY2NiIsImMiOjh9

Sorry, I don't have the stats for the other countries.

(Cue breast beating about Long Covid)

It's very odd, Alegrias, because I looked for the person you recommended us to follow and one of the first of her tweets that I saw said:

It will never cease to baffle me why some people are “concerned” about “unknown” long term side-effects of these vaccines but for some reason not the unknown long term side-effects this virus or for that matter, the KNOWN long term-side effects of this virus. Just saying.

twitter.com/sailorrooscout/status/1479489471611613188

I saw that too Maizie. I also read a number of her previous tweets and was wondering what kind of scientist she is.

growstuff

I saw that too Maizie. I also read a number of her previous tweets and was wondering what kind of scientist she is.

A furry one.

Surely a feathered one if tweeting?

Must away to my bed before I get accused of being a hanger on again.?