Covid vaccine harm?

Nanatoone, spot on, and yes, our NHS is crumbling - a far bigger worry.

For those who agree with the awful Bridgen this is all about confirmation bias. They believe in something close to what he says so want to believe he is right as it confirms their faith in this rhetoric.

It is nothing to do with proper scientific information.

Bridgen should be banned from Parliament for the snake oil salesman that he is.

For all the posters claiming that the vaccine has saved million of lives, how do you know that as scientifically proven fact? There are so many factors to take into account, it would be impossible to prove one way or another. It is certainly not a " scientifically proven fact"
These statements come from the very same people that also insisted that the vaccine was 100% safe and effective. They insisted that if you got the vaccine you would not get Covid and you would not pass it on to granny. We now know these statements, even if said in good faith, were false.
I am vaccinated but not blinkered to the possibility that the risk/benefit of an unlicensed product may have done more harm than good, especially to the younger generation who were not at risk from the virus anyway. I also have to acknowledge that long term damage/benefit is still an unknown for obvious reasons.
I would never call anyone ignorant for their views around the vaccine because at the moment, as there is a lack of cohesive, world, peer reviewed data, we are all ignorant and will be for years to come.

Three years in, and were still getting this rubbish. I'll be back after breakfast with some "scientific facts".

Normandygirl How do you explain all the extra deaths in 2020, especially the decimation of the elderly and ill?

Sorry, but it is a scientifically proven fact.

No reputable scientic source ever said that the vaccine was 100% safe ane effective. There has never been a vaccine that is 100% safe and effective.

Of course there is no 'cohesive world, peer reviewed data'. There is immense variation because different countries have used different forms of the vaccine and their vaccination programmes have been more or less cohesive.. But there is plenty of cohesive data that once the vaccination became available the incidence and severity of COVID in this country and many others dropped dramatically and that most of those who got the disease had not been vaccinated.

Just a couple of things to add to what M0nica says:

When someone says the vaccine is unlicenced, the implication is that it is untested. This is not true. Licencing only ever happens after any medication has been subject to extensive and rigorous testing, and the process of licencing can take years. It is therefore irrelevant that the vaccine is unlicenced.

Every vaccine, every medication of course, can have side effects that can be serious. Some have side effects that are not serious at all - a sore arm for 24 hours, for instance. If the vaccine has a bad effect on you its a big deal for you of course, but the risk benefit analysis swings firmly towards having the vaccine, because the risk of a significant side effect is dwarfed by the positive impacts of the vaccine in stopping you getting very ill and dying of Covid.

Long term damage is another red herring. The Covid vaccine only lasts days or weeks in your body (maybe its just hours, can't remember exactly). Then it is gone and it is your immune system that is getting the job done, prompted by the vaccine. There will be no "long term effects" because that is not how vaccines work.

Our fit and healthy SIL (ex team GB) had the vaccine, within days he was in hospital on a drip with a blood clot on each lung.

A few months later he was back in hospital with sepsis.

He had private treatment eventually for the blood clots as the NHS kept postponing his treatment, he could not claim on his BUPA as they said it was vaccine related.

We will not have any further vaccines.

volver

Just a couple of things to add to what M0nica says:

When someone says the vaccine is unlicenced, the implication is that it is untested. This is not true. Licencing only ever happens after any medication has been subject to extensive and rigorous testing, and the process of licencing can take years. It is therefore irrelevant that the vaccine is unlicenced.

Every vaccine, every medication of course, can have side effects that can be serious. Some have side effects that are not serious at all - a sore arm for 24 hours, for instance. If the vaccine has a bad effect on you its a big deal for you of course, but the risk benefit analysis swings firmly towards having the vaccine, because the risk of a significant side effect is dwarfed by the positive impacts of the vaccine in stopping you getting very ill and dying of Covid.

Long term damage is another red herring. The Covid vaccine only lasts days or weeks in your body (maybe its just hours, can't remember exactly). Then it is gone and it is your immune system that is getting the job done, prompted by the vaccine. There will be no "long term effects" because that is not how vaccines work.

Re your first point
" Licencing only ever happens after any medication has been subject to extensive and rigorous testing, and the process of licencing can take years. It is therefore irrelevant that the vaccine is unlicenced."
There are very good reasons why we have insisted on this process don't you think? An admittance that an " extensive and rigorous testing process has not taken place for this
product is not an argument in it's favour, so it being an unlicensed product is absolutely relevant.
Secondly, You are right in that all vaccines and indeed medications have side effects, but the risk/benefit evaluation depends on your demographic surely. For this particular product, we know that the risk factor for healthy under 40's is statistically higher and the benefit factor is lower as they are not likely to die from this virus. That is also a "scientifically proven" fact and some countries such as Denmark have stated that they do not recommend the vaccine for under 40's. because of this.
Thirdly,
"Long term damage is another red herring. The Covid vaccine only lasts days or weeks in your body (maybe its just hours, can't remember exactly). Then it is gone and it is your immune system that is getting the job done, prompted by the vaccine. There will be no "long term effects" because that is not how vaccines work."
Where to start with this one. What you state is true of a traditional vaccine but is not true for the MRNA vaccine.
To trigger an immune response, traditional vaccines put a weakened or inactivated germ into our bodies. Not mRNA vaccines. Instead, mRNA vaccines use mRNA created in a laboratory to teach our cells how to make a protein—or even just a piece of a protein—that triggers an immune response inside our bodies.
A traditional vaccine tricks the immune system into believing that an infection has taken place and antibodies are produced against any future infection. The MRNA vaccine alters the way our bodies respond to a virus ,so how long the original vaccine stays in the body is not relevant, as the changes made in cell response are permanent.
What are the long term effects of this? Maybe, it will be beneficial for humankind.......or maybe not.

so it being an unlicensed product is absolutely relevant.

Yep. But you brought it up and implied it meant something it doesn't

Side effects depend on your "demographic" certainly. Maybe you can point out where I said they didn't?

And finally, the mRNA vaccine triggers our own immune response to do its own thing, then it disappears. So no change there, then. It's just really clever.

so it being an unlicensed product is absolutely relevant.

Oh, I misread that. Sorry.

I read "irrelevant".

Because its irrelevant. 🤷🏼

volver

^so it being an unlicensed product is absolutely relevant.^

Oh, I misread that. Sorry.

I read "irrelevant".

Because its irrelevant. 🤷🏼

So you believe that decades of regulations and protocols designed to ensure that medical products are safe should be abandoned?
Great idea, I'm sure the Pharma companies would agree with you.

Normandygirl Who has ever claimed any vaccine is 100% safe and effective. And what do you understand by "effective"?

PS. Do you understand what "licensed" means?

I have met two people, previously fit and healthy, who had bad reactions to the Covid vaccine, both were in hospital for weeks and needing physiotherapy for months afterwards, unable to work. They live in different parts of the country.
Their consultants have informed them that it was a result of the Covid vaccine and AZ are fully aware of these cases.

However, these reactions are rare and on balance it is probably better to have the vaccine than not for the majority of people.

Sago I fully understand your distress at your SiL's medical problem, but you do not say whether it has been shown conclusively that your DSiL's illness was caused by the vaccination or what the link between the two is. Still less, the link with sepsis.

Many of us have had friends and family who died from the virus or remain still seriously ill and unable to work several years after catching it before the vaccination was available.

There may be genetic reasons why your family are particularly susceptible to rare reactions to vaccines, but presumably most if not all had all their childhood vaccinations without extreme reactions.

It does not follow that because two things happen at much the same time there is automatically a link between the two.

Sago
I'm sorry to hear about your SIL, Sago and hope he recovers well.
The two fit people I know had different symptoms (paralysis) and this and your SIL's symptoms are known and have been documented.

They are rare, however, and we have to make our own risk assessments when making a decision.

Callistemon21

Sago
I'm sorry to hear about your SIL, Sago and hope he recovers well.
The two fit people I know had different symptoms (paralysis) and this and your SIL's symptoms are known and have been documented.

They are rare, however, and we have to make our own risk assessments when making a decision.

Thank you, he was told the blood clots were a reaction to the vaccine.
The sepsis they believe was due to a suppressed immune system after the blood clots and relevant treatment.
He is now well and able to fly again although he is still taking anti clotting meds.

Normandygirl

For all the posters claiming that the vaccine has saved million of lives, how do you know that as scientifically proven fact? There are so many factors to take into account, it would be impossible to prove one way or another. It is certainly not a " scientifically proven fact"
These statements come from the very same people that also insisted that the vaccine was 100% safe and effective. They insisted that if you got the vaccine you would not get Covid and you would not pass it on to granny. We now know these statements, even if said in good faith, were false.
I am vaccinated but not blinkered to the possibility that the risk/benefit of an unlicensed product may have done more harm than good, especially to the younger generation who were not at risk from the virus anyway. I also have to acknowledge that long term damage/benefit is still an unknown for obvious reasons.
I would never call anyone ignorant for their views around the vaccine because at the moment, as there is a lack of cohesive, world, peer reviewed data, we are all ignorant and will be for years to come.

Are you a vaccine scientist Normandygirl? If not what do your views matter? The vaccine was peer reviewed by equally capable scientists. Because they are scientists I feel quite sure none of them every said the vaccine was "100% safe and effective". I certainly didn't hear that, far from it.

However, you may have seen something or read something you could quote that was said.

As for ignorant. Those who think they are entitled to their own unfounded truths are certainly lacking in knowledge - isn't that what ignorance is?

"I do have a problem with ignorant people who somehow decide that they 'know better' than the accepted medical advice. Based on what exactly?"

This is one of the big problems that has been exposed over the last three years. If you know you have been lied to you tend to disbelieve everything you are told, not just the lies.

And we were lied to. By government, by newspapers, by some doctors and by some scientists, and most especially by those in the "nudge unit" who wanted to manipulate our behaviour.

Distinguishing truth from lies in such circumstances is very difficult. We have lost trust in those that we should be able to trust. We suspect that some people do not have our best interests at heart.

It's going to take a long time to restore the trust we once had.

Which lies specifically GrannyRose15?

I think you know exactly what I am talking about.

Not worth engaging growstuff.

GrannyRose15

I think you know exactly what I am talking about.

No, I don't. That's why I asked.

I am surprised there was any delay in treating your SiL's blood clots sago When I was hospitalised in the spring there was no delay at all and every care was taken of me. I wondered about the vaccine but according to my research the one I had showed a negligible risk of clots and I've had a similar one since with no ill effects.

Deedaa

I am surprised there was any delay in treating your SiL's blood clots sago When I was hospitalised in the spring there was no delay at all and every care was taken of me. I wondered about the vaccine but according to my research the one I had showed a negligible risk of clots and I've had a similar one since with no ill effects.

There wasn’t a delay initially as it was acute.
He needed scans to follow up, they were being postponed so he ended up going privately.