Child arrangement court order

No one said custody cases with parents can’t cause a child harm, we they did say though was those were their parents. Extended family shouldn’t then also do it

Summer you really don't get it do you? A child knows a lie just because they know it, because they are not stupid. I know they were not fed it, I know they worked it out themselves. However you are quite close to the situatio, it was the parent trying to alienate the child against the GP but the child saw the lie and told the GP. There was so much more to this too

I disagree if anyone thinks a child is better off not being deprived of people who are good for them then they should take advice in the interests of the children. Too much on here is people being for or against rather than understanding there may be more to it.

I get it just fine. I know 5yr olds quite well, do you?

A five year old doesn’t come up with that without “help”.

Oh of course situations are complicated with more to it. No one has stated otherwise

What has been stated is people disagreeing that parenting rights should be stripped and given instead to grandparents or other extended family members.

The lack of respect given to a generation as parents by the generation who raised them and now takes them to court for not giving them what they want is a generalization, but I do see it a lot.

We raised our children
They are different than us
It’s not our place to judge how they do things. Applying to strip some of their parenting rights is not the way to go about it.

I think the 5 years olds I know must be brighter than the ones you know. Recent chats with my 5 year old GC prove it. He questions every last thing which doesn't seem correct to him. Of course it does depend on how obvious the lie is but if you know your parent says whatever is convenient and not necessarily true you soon learn that Mummy/Daddy tells lies. Children are far from stupid!

Nonnie, that is not how a 5 year old thinks.

Without giving too much away for my own privacy, in my profession, if I heard a child make a comment like that, that would immediately raise a reg flag for me.

It is natural and normal for a child to align with their parent. Even children from abusive backgrounds demonstrate this.

Children are far from stupid, but a comment like that is not something a child would say unless they had heard it from an adult.

I agree Summerlove, sounds like parental alienation. When a young child speaks negatively about a parent, it is usually due to third party interference.

Parental alienation causes lifelong damage and has a devastating impact on a child in their present and future life.

Being “alienated” from a grandparent, if you can even call it that, is not comparable. A child does not have the same bond with a grandparent than they do with their parent. Children raised without grandparents in their life fare no differently to those raised with grandparents in their life.

Non ie we don't even know if you are telling the truth so I fail to see how a 5 year old works it out 100% of the time

We were on holiday 2 years ago with a family and their 3 children, the eldest was 6.

Mr. S. went in the pool with him and his brother several times a day and about 3 days into the holiday, after their dad kept saying when asked by his children to join in, 'yes in few minutes', the eldest got very upset.

Mr. S. told him not to get upset as dad would come in and play, and the 6 year old responded with "no he's wying(lying) he's always wying".

So you see Summerlove if a 6 year old can make that observation without 'help' why not a 5 year old? Children aren't stupid. If a parent is constantly fobbing a child off by saying they'll do something in few minutes or in a moment, and they never or rarely do so, the child sees that their parent is lying without having any help to form that opinion.

Razz you may not agree with nonnie's example but that doesn't entitle you to say "we don't even know if you're telling the truth".

In case there are any doubts as to the truthfulness of my post, I can assure that it the truth and an exact retelling of the events that day.

5 and 6 year old's may not be able to work things out 100% of the time but that doesn't mean they are never able to do so.

The difference, Smileless, is that in your example, the child was angry with his father, in that moment, for not coming to play with him when the child wanted him to. That is typical for a child. They are only interested in having their current needs met. Sounds like a normal reaction to me.

Smileless, are you saying that if you had heard either of your children say, as 5 year olds “mummy tells lies but grandma doesn’t” that you wouldn’t have been concerned?

I didn’t say children were stupid. I think children are quite bright.

I said it sounded like that child was coached.

Yes a normal reaction GG from a child who when his father repeatedly says he's going to do a thing and fails to do so, sees that his parent is lying.

Saying you'll do something that you have no intention of doing, is telling a lie. During the 7 days of that holiday the dad played in the pool with his children on only one occasion despite telling them more than once a day that he would.

Of course I'd have been concerned GG but what was being discussed here was whether or not a child of that age was able to discern if an adult was lying without being given 'help' to form that judgement.

I have given an example that demonstrates that a 6 year old can make that judgement from their own observations without being 'helped' by another adult to do so.

But Nonnie’s example was not of a child being able to discern if an adult is lying. Children grasp the concept of lies. Lying is a normal part of child development.

What Nonnie described was a 5 year old child identifying her mother as a “liar” and her grandmother as “honest”. 5 year olds do not come to such conclusions on their own.

Of course they can. If a 5 year old for example hears his/her mother saying something they know to be untrue, a lie, but has never heard their GM do the same thing, it is not unreasonable for that child to conclude that their mother lies and their GM doesn't.

That doesn't of course mean that the GM never lies, simply that the child has not witnessed her doing so.

Could you please apply you last comment to a scenario to help me understand your perspective a bit better Smileless.

Let's say that GM has invited the family for tea and the child knows this and over hears his mum on the 'phone saying that they can't go because they've already arranged to go out but they don't go out.

The child may not know why they're not going but will know that the reason his mother gave was a lie.

Sure, but in that scenario, how would they come to the conclusion that grandma doesn’t tell lies?

I didn't say in that post that that would be the case GG but I did say in my previous post that if a child has never heard their GM lie it's reasonable that they assume she doesn't tell lies, she is honest, where as the mother has shown that she is not honest.

I can’t see a 5 year old coming to that conclusion at all Smileless.

Does that mean that if a child knows that their mum has baths at home, but has never seen their grandma having a bath, that they would assume their mum washes but their grandma doesn’t?

Do you think that is the scenario Nonnie described?

I'm not calling anyone a liar, just making a point. If you have a parent saying one thing and a grandparent saying another, how is the child going to know? Also we all know parents are tired and occasionally say in a minute or maybe later. That doesn't make them liars in general. Children aren't going to know who is telling the truth between a grandparent and a parent over larger issues. Especially if one of them is toxic.

Possibly GG. A child who has witnessed their mother lying may assume that their GM doesn't lie, is honest, because they've never witnessed her telling a lie.

My point is that it is wrong to assume that if a child has come to that conclusion, that they were 'helped'. IMO it is being implied in the example given by nonnie, that that particular child was helped by their GM in an attempt to alienate the child from his/her mother.

Razz even went as far to say that we don't know if nonnie was telling the truth!