AEC thread. Feel free to chat or add helpful resources here.

Troop Zero?

Here's a clip from the closing scene from White Oleander:

m.youtube.com/watch?v=HCFkb6TItbc

Listen carefully .. to the dialogue ..

You will also see Astrid's mixed media suitcases that tell her story ..

I would say it was deleted because the OP was looking for information for a book they were writing rather than because of the subject matter. It was deleted very quickly and there was certainly nothing offensive at the point that I posted there.

The term brainwashing is usually associated with cults and rightly so, but it does occur in personal relationships too which even though it is often discounted, is why the influence of a third party in some estrangement cases is relevant.

Could maintaining a belief in something that isn't true also be categorised as self abuse? And damaging on some level to others as a result? Absolutely rosecarmel which makes for example the issues of brainwashing and/or coercive control so concerning.

Imagine what it must be like for an EAC manipulated or brainwashed by their partner to the extent that they estrange their family, who eventually is free of that abusive relationship and can then see that they had been maintaining a belief that their parent(s) and/or family were dysfunctional and/or abusive, that wasn't true!!

A great deal of damage would have been inflicted not only onto the people they'd estranged, but potentially upon themselves too when they see that they were wrong.

I've seen that film before rosecarmel and I was torn between a romantic idea that beauty can come out of tragedy and the thought that, none of this is OK and there shouldn't be an end that justifies the means when so often tragedy begets tragedy

Like if my honest suicide attempt as a teen had been successful, no one would ever have known my story.... How many stories end abruptly. How many abusers don't ever have to receive any kind of punishment, even if that justice is just losing the ability to abuse their child ever again.

Starblaze -- I often wonder how many teen suicides are caused by abusive families who bully their children and allow them to be bullied by everyone else, like my 'family' did. I'm sure my 'mom' would have played the victim card to the max and FOREVER if I had killed myself. Something inside me told me she wanted me to 'do it'.

What kind of 'parent' would want to see their child commit suicide? She'd get the sympathy and support and her "dirty little secret" (of being a child abuser) could never be exposed by me.

Saying Narcissists are unable to love or empathize is an understatement. Yet she doesn't grasp why almost no one will have anything to do with her.

The thing is, abusers often alienate the people around them and as their 'circle'/supply dwindles they have to find others' to fill the gap OR heap ever increasing abuse on those who are still around until they too end contact.

The 'common denominator' in all her relationships is HER and yet to her anyone who says SHE is "the problem" is 'wrong'.

The turn-around is, I care now for her as much as she 'loves' Me. To destroy the bond that a child naturally has for a 'parent', especially a 'mom' takes years invalidation and lack of real love. Once I realized she doesn't feel anything but negative emotions toward Me, I stopped feeling ANYTHING toward her.

It's why I get a giggle when people tell me I am "angry" or "enraged". LOL Nope. The "default setting" of angry is my 'mom'. Thankfully, regardless of how many times she tried to convince me how 'alike' We were, I always thought internally, "Lady... I am NOTHING like YOU."

Starblaze, I understand- There are many circumstances (and stories) where innocent, inexperienced individuals are depicted as old enough to make certain decisions so it's infuriating when abuse is depicted as consensual -- by authors and predators real time-

As far as punishment goes, my question is how does one measure the punishment to be carried out before the punishment dealt in and of itself becomes abuse as well?

Some ascribe to eye for and eye- And in doing do, sometimes risk getting abused yet again, or worse, in their efforts to punish the person that abused them to begin with-

It's a vicious cycle ..

Somehow .. people that don't know how to love long to be loved .. and somehow, sometimes, people that know how to love and do, don't receive it in return from those they offer love to ..

What's the solution?

I imagine it's up to the individual to decide?

I don't often discuss suicide online for a variety of reasons, but I'm glad you are alive to tell your unfolding story-

As Ghandi said 'an eye for an eye could make the whole world blind' or words to that effect.

Currently, by law, there are very limited circumstances where a person can be held accountable for another taking their own life-

According to the author David Sedaris, everyone is responsible, collectively-

NAMI (National Alliance on Mental Health) maintains that nobody is to blame-

rosecarmel I haven't ever really sat and blamed my mum for that. Without any graphic detail, I can only tell you what I thought at the time. I thought that I was in too much pain and didn't want to exist any more. I thought that no one would care or miss me when I am wrong.

Did my mum contribute to either of those feelings? I think it would be fair to say yes but how much I don't know... She did work towards preventing me from getting the help that would have worked that one out.. And I don't think it was discussed in later counselling

rosecarmel -- No Contact does keep everyone from going blind.

With a true Narc, like my 'mom', you can sit and take her BS or you could to try to stand up for yourself which just fed into her supply. Seeing you get upset/hurt by her words and actions was the intent of those words/actions.

That is why it's called a cycle of abuse. By taking her abuse (once you come out of the FOG) you are passively enabling her. One, by being 'present' so she can exercise her 'right'/entitlement to abuse and two by condoning the behavior by not standing up to it.

At that point BOTH SIDES are now displaying dysfunctional/unhealthy relationship dynamics. No Contact is the healthy 'end' to change your own participation in the dynamic. What the cut-off/NC'd 'parent' does next is on them.

As I have said, "You can only wash 'your side' of the dirty window." If the EP wants to cling to their dysfunction/NOT wash or even think about cleaning 'their side' of the window, then what else can an AC do?

Of course all of what I just said = 'parent bashing' but again, the truth/reality is what it IS. It's why I will not engage in circular arguments with people who routinely display their dysfunction.

Even IF an EP is not 100% responsible for their estrangement they are at the LEAST 50% 'responsible' just as I am.

"I have nothing to apologize for." or "It's all on their evil spouse." are showing 100% that the 'parent' isn't even willing to "own" their 50% and that says all you need to know.

Holyhannah I'm not quite there yet but I know I will never speak to her again... I hope to nothing gef one dy but I have this sadness for everything she is missing out on even if it i her own fault... Is that love?

Honestly I think your mum I more awful than mine though

Starblaze, I'm confident that if and when answers are needed, you'd seek them out, no longer having to rely on a parent to guide you or deny you your right to your wellbeing-

rosecarmel thank you.

You are such a wise person and I really appreciate you

Starblaze -- It's not a "contest" and I wouldn't wish the kind of treatment my husband and I grew up with on any-thing (animals included).

Early in my recovery I met another survivor who was much further along then myself and some others in the group. He very patiently explained, "We ALL had the same mother."

His point was, abuse is abuse and regardless of the type, the damage/aftereffects such as C-PTSD are universal. Damaged is damaged. That said, it did turn into a humorous discussion about, "If we all had the same mother I would have thought the queue for the loo would have been longer!" and "I don't remember having so many siblings..." and such.

"It's all on their evil spouse." ...are showing 100% that the 'parent' isn't even willing to "own" their 50% and that says all you need to know.

Holyhannah could you clarify for me what this means please. I'm not sure that understand what point you are making

Honestly I just think that society has changed from being very adult-centric to child-centric. Children had very few rights in older generations and were expected to just do as told. Now we value children for their own ideas and inputs. This is in general, there is always a range within each generation. I remember my parents watching crime shows saying "they just need a good flogging" well guess what my brother is a career criminal and all the flogging they did on him only made it worse / caused his behaviour.

I don't think it's a cult at all, but rather parents less willing to put up with bad behaviour in the name of family. "That's just the way he is" heard this way too many times.

However as with all good movements there are people who can take advantage of it. (More focus being placed on rape accusations - false rape accusations). Some toxic parents use their children to further their own agenda (pay this or don't see grandkids). I don't think it's anywhere near a majority doing this (same as false rape accusations) but it does happen.

Madgran -- Since this thread is about abused EAC I'll answer from that perspective. No one can alienate someone without some kind of 'ammunition'/behavior from the other 'side' with which to exploit/use to manipulate.

A third party can't alienate someone from a 'loving situation' unless there was no love there to begin with. Now a 'third party' like a son/daughter-in-law could be the catalyst for estrangement if, for example, the 'parent' threatened to sue for GP rights.

Then an 'abusive' child-in-law could use 'that' to say, "Your family is threatening court action. Cut them off or it's a divorce." Is the 'parent' blameless there? Nope. Is the child-in-law manipulating the situation? Maybe. That's pretty good 'ammunition' to use though.

If the 'parent' doesn't remember a "small detail" like that or anything else they may have done to cause offense and wants to pretend they are blameless to the point of not even owning 50% responsibility then I am going to think they may be more of the issue then they admit.

HolyHannah

rosecarmel -- No Contact does keep everyone from going blind.

With a true Narc, like my 'mom', you can sit and take her BS or you could to try to stand up for yourself which just fed into her supply. Seeing you get upset/hurt by her words and actions was the intent of those words/actions.

That is why it's called a cycle of abuse. By taking her abuse (once you come out of the FOG) you are passively enabling her. One, by being 'present' so she can exercise her 'right'/entitlement to abuse and two by condoning the behavior by not standing up to it.

At that point BOTH SIDES are now displaying dysfunctional/unhealthy relationship dynamics. No Contact is the healthy 'end' to change your own participation in the dynamic. What the cut-off/NC'd 'parent' does next is on them.

As I have said, "You can only wash 'your side' of the dirty window." If the EP wants to cling to their dysfunction/NOT wash or even think about cleaning 'their side' of the window, then what else can an AC do?

Of course all of what I just said = 'parent bashing' but again, the truth/reality is what it IS. It's why I will not engage in circular arguments with people who routinely display their dysfunction.

Even IF an EP is not 100% responsible for their estrangement they are at the LEAST 50% 'responsible' just as I am.

"I have nothing to apologize for." or "It's all on their evil spouse." are showing 100% that the 'parent' isn't even willing to "own" their 50% and that says all you need to know.

I don't consider any of the above parent bashing, HolyHannah-

When I witness/observe my children's mannerisms, behaviors and life choices, I see the examples I set, I see patterns and decision impact/results-

We've discussed these things at great length, and I remain open to further discussions- Sometimes they've questions I've no clear answers for because I don't know and say so- But when I do have them I'm clear-

I came to one realization last year regarding a family member that's resulted in increasing degrees of distancing as well as yet another realization this year that has resulted in the same- The risk when holding myself accountable, or someone else, is the distance-

Estrangement has occurred in my family for generations, as have reunions- But if I'm not mistaken, I'm the first to provide explanations- I do so because sometimes "stuff" isn't obvious to everyone and hope that when I don't see what's obvious that someone will return the courtesy-

I began down this path at 17- I'm now 60- And still at it- Thankfully-

When people say they ain't that crazy about their child's decision of who they took up with, I look in the mirror- (could have been me!) ?

And when I wasn't crazy about who my children took up with, I looked in the miror! (again, it could be me) ?

Sometimes when realizing something, I laugh and cry at the same time .. accountability can sneak up from behind ..

Definitely Ironflower and that sort of person does tremendous harm to genuine victims.... I do wonder though at people who run with it as an excuse to invalidate real victims.. I don't understand that one when I come across it

Smileless2012

I would say it was deleted because the OP was looking for information for a book they were writing rather than because of the subject matter. It was deleted very quickly and there was certainly nothing offensive at the point that I posted there.

The term brainwashing is usually associated with cults and rightly so, but it does occur in personal relationships too which even though it is often discounted, is why the influence of a third party in some estrangement cases is relevant.

Could maintaining a belief in something that isn't true also be categorised as self abuse? And damaging on some level to others as a result? Absolutely rosecarmel which makes for example the issues of brainwashing and/or coercive control so concerning.

Imagine what it must be like for an EAC manipulated or brainwashed by their partner to the extent that they estrange their family, who eventually is free of that abusive relationship and can then see that they had been maintaining a belief that their parent(s) and/or family were dysfunctional and/or abusive, that wasn't true!!

A great deal of damage would have been inflicted not only onto the people they'd estranged, but potentially upon themselves too when they see that they were wrong.

The pain experienced from estrangement isn't a result of abuse but a life event thats inviting opportunities for growth-

When hearts are broken, they grow- And it hurts- For a while- But when hearts hurt longer than a while it's because they keep trying to close, in order not feel anything- Which only makes the pain worse-

Nobody is responsible for another's closed heart, only the breaking of it- Which can be traumatizing, but something which there is help for, and with it, more opportunities to grow-

I do wonder though at people who run with it as an excuse to invalidate real victims..

Absolutely Starblaze. This also happens in rape cases. 'She's just accusing him because he's famous etc etc. It's a vicious cycle.

rosecarmel -- "I don't consider any of the above parent bashing, HolyHannah-" Not you or other EAC but EP's seem to feel that anything that asks THEM to see 'their part' = 'parent bashing' or some kind of attack.

Ironflower and Starblaze -- The idea that it takes just one 'bad apple'/false reporter to give all victims a bad name is true. It's really more of the 'Unicorn Principle' -- If there is one good and loving family that are unjustly estranged then everyone cries, "Not ALL!!!" and then claims to be a Unicorn.

And as I have stated a time or two, the reverse stats do not back that up. Our EP's say one thing (they are estranged for no 'good' reason) and almost all EAC children cite some kind of abuse/dysfunction.

Will I 'support' or validate someone who displays all the things my own 'mom' did and start agreeing with lies and become an enabler again? Nope.

Will the gas-lighting of saying, "Well, many people tell the same story as Me so therefore it must be the truth..." work on Me? Nope.

It's funny how abusers and their memory is 'perfect' and yet a victims memory is always flawed. You know, because We are younger/less mature/not as smart etc.

Perpetual abusers always have a 'thing' that makes what they did "not wrong". It's the mentality of, "IF I raped that woman it was because of..." and at that point, with any type of abuser, I push the stop button.

If you rape, it's because You are a rapist. If you abuse your child, YOU are a child-abuser.

If you lie, change versions of events and deny your own admissions when evidence is available that proves you lie, like letters etc. and then claim, "I never said that/it didn't happen or 'it' is being taken out of context..." That is more gas-lighting/denial of culpability.

Abusers NEVER take personal accountability.

As a personal note... I have known some people who have done some 'not so good things' who paid a price for their miss-deeds and emotionally grew from being held accountable. My two personal experiences with 'that' gained me two now, very honest friends. When you are stripped bare and change for the better? Some people (like Me) will accept and support that personal growth.

Without that 'personal growth'? You're just another pathetic abuser/bully. If someone wants my support it's easy to get. Don't be an @ss...

I know I have told the story before but, I met an estranged father once and he joined a chat with a bunch of EAC and gave the "usual story" of befuddlement as to why he was estranged... The interesting bit was, he lead with (paraphrased), "I've been reading this conversation with interest and know how I will be 'received'..." And then he went on to tell his 'tale'.

And Us EAC let him have 'it' asking hard and blunt questions. He answered everything in a way that was either fully honest/truthful OR He was the best/biggest liar/Narc any of US had ever 'met'.

At the end, Us 'kids' came to the same conclusion, the theme of which was, "IF We were your child and you talked to Us like You have here? We would not be estranged from You."

Sadly, he was one of the few EP's I have 'met' that not only was willing to listen to what We had to say, but was willing to risk the skepticism and short-term not being believed, in order to engage Us with the hope of both honest and helpful feedback/recommendations.

The first We were able to supply-ish to the tune of, "You don't sound like a typical abuser/like Our parent(s)..." The second part? Well, We estranged ourselves from abusers and know how to fix 'that' if it was within our power to do so... What advice could We give to someone who was doing all the things We were saying need to be done in order to 'fix' why We were NC with our own 'family'?

Madgran -- Since this thread is about abused EAC I'll answer from that perspective

As you are an EAC, I cant really see what other perpective you could answer it from. Thanks for replying

Holyhannah I will shout from the rooftops that I was an innocent child who had done nothing wrong.

Was I perfect, innocent and blameless as an adult? Nope.

Did I spend a great deal of time and effort growing and changing and becoming a better person.... with no change over more than 2 decades in how I was treated? Yep.

Was I perfect and blameless then? Nope.

Did my upbringing impact the adult I became? Yep

Is that an excuse? Nope

Am I as an adult responsible for all my own behaviour even if that behaviour is reacting to someone elses bad behaviour? Yep

So why on earth am I going to believe that anyone did nothing to deserve being estranged when I know that no one is perfect and blameless in life and relationships are a 2 way street.

Perhaps it's the old argument about what does/does not warrant estrangement but that's a choice that is in the hands of the one doing the estranging and whether it's liked or not, we cannot take that choice away by debating it.

Man I was so depressed and miserable my teenage years. Hiding my abuse, working after school and weekends constantly. On building sites (painting, tiling whatever), in my parents shop. I was never allowed to do anything or have friends. I often wanted to end it. I thought that I was just a depressed person like my dad, however since leaving and having my wonderful family I am so happy. I'm free and none of those feelings have ever come back (although of course I can still have panic attacks etc).

Wish I could go back and tell my teenage self that things do get better.