Gransnet forums

Estrangement

The "abuse cycle" and other things/themes that EAC identify with.

(480 Posts)
HolyHannah Thu 05-Mar-20 05:39:48

I understand that some EP's are profoundly hurt by their adult child(ren) choice to estrange/go No Contact. How someone reacts to being hurt is very telling in my opinion.

It is one thing for EP's to call estrangement a "living bereavement" but to go so far as to have memorial services and I even read about an EP that held a mock funeral and invited all the rest of the family that was loyal to her to the 'grave-side' ceremony. She wanted to show her young grand-daughter, her daughters child, what happens when you turn your back on 'family' by lowering a box of her Uncles possessions into the ground.

Sadly, abusive parents like that take those actions as a way to make them "feel better"/'take back their control' etc. Do they think of the implications of those actions? What must that poor child have thought? Clearly son/uncle was right to walk away from his FOO and the fact that his sister 'stood' with their mom and exposed her own child to that shows how the cycle of abuse works.

The message that child received was, "If you aren't 'good enough' or behave the 'right way' (their way) then you will be disposed of/'let go' as well." What could be more terrifying to a child? A minor child who has no exit options. Hint -- nothing... The fear of being abandoned/'cast out' was constant in my world because I was taught, "You don't matter and no one cares what happens to you..."

Now if the son finds out about this 'funeral', he'll probably go, "Yeah. Goes to show what she really thinks of Me. She'd rather see me 'dead' then stop abusing Me or even examine the possibility that she might be part of the issue."

I always felt like my 'mom' wanted me to kill myself and when I read EP's talking like that I thought, "Well, the fact that they are willing to do that in effigy says to me, maybe that's really where some abusive parents DO want their goat/lesser child(ren) to be... Dead." When/IF We finally 'wake-up'/come out of the FOG, also known as our breaking point/rock bottom, we refuse to enable the abuse by tolerating/accepting the abuse any further.

I believe this is what abusive EP's mean when they say, "My child needs to own 'their part' in the estrangement." I believe abusers think their victims "part" is that they (the victim) 'allowed'/accepted the abuse for as long as they did. What a beautiful/perfect denial of reality... "My child always 'accepted' how I treated them and even 'praised' Me as a 'mom' with cards and notes and AND AND..."

Of course abused children do 'those things' that abusive parents state. It is a child's attempt to get the love they desperately crave and abusers see that as 'proof' that they were a 'good' parent. Unfortunately, many of us eventually realize they is no love to be had regardless of what we do/have done.

The attitude of "that's just how I am, take it or leave it" is a sign of immaturity. As an adult, it's your responsibility to figure out which of your traits are toxic and are negatively impactful towards other people and the ones you love, and to eventually learn how to fix them. At some point we all have to start making ourselves better individuals. If you truly believe you don't have to change anything about yourself, even at the very least the worst in you and that people will just have to deal with it, then sorry, you are still a child. -- Anonymous

HolyHannah Wed 09-Sept-20 18:35:30

Starblaze -- I have zero 'feelings' for my 'mom'.

It would be easy to be angry about the injustice of being raised by an abuser but her "default setting" of angry was part of why she was abusive.

It's part of why I love the Jedi faith. One of the important parts of the religion is to let go of negative emotions.

I think it's part of my Autism that I am very in tune with the energy in the room. Negative energy drives me away so I get called anti-social/awkward etc. With the support of the right people I am 'fine'/normal and accommodating my 'needs' should be easily within the limits of a reasonable adult because what I ask for as support is kinda common sense stuff.

As a side note, when I explain my Autism, younger people are far more receptive/willing to help. I get more respect from strangers on the subject then my own 'family'.

Chewbacca Wed 09-Sept-20 18:45:49

One of the important parts of the religion is to let go of negative emotions.

It would be healthy for you if you really could let it go HolyHannah. I feel that you won't find any peace of mind until you do.

HolyHannah Wed 09-Sept-20 18:51:50

Already done!

Thanks for that though. flowers

HolyHannah Mon 21-Sept-20 06:24:37

This belongs better here:

I have been thinking a lot on perspectives and the differences between EP's and AC/Child Abuse Survivors who are No Contact.

A while ago it was pointed out to me, "Child abuse/No Contact AC don't see themselves as two separate groups." and that is true from my POV.

"Adult Children DO estrange from good/loving family." says EP's and yet no EAC can be found that confirms that statement.

I read a comment the other day along the lines of, "Can't you be encouraging and supportive?" and I concluded:

Encouraging = "You didn't do anything 'wrong'."/"You don't deserve the way your AC is treating You/Estrangement."

Support = "Your child is immature, ungrateful, disrespectful etc..."

With that as the criteria for 'helping' EP's, I think it's rather clear why I'll do neither and thus I am a 'White Thinker'... There's not even grey in that attitude/thinking. I can own/admit MY 'one colored thinking' because I have truth/reality on my side and the only people who can't accept their 'one-sided' thinking are... Those that think in black.

They can't even OWN their 'one-sided' thinking... I read a disturbing thread from a bunch of EP's and these are the thoughts/beliefs:

The OP said, "Yesterday my daughter said she doesnt have time for a relationship with me. I dont want to disrespect her," etc. And she asked for advice... Some of the replies are why reconciling, in my opinion is NOT what EP's really want...

Reply - "I’m so sorry you had to experience this. Unfortunately we did too. Our son told us to get out of his life and, of course, stated his reasons why. So painful, isn’t it." -- And yet EP's claim they don't know "why" and admit over and over that they were "told" WHY but because Our legitimate reasons 'hurt' them? THEY are the 'victim'.

"I decided against a nice”of course you have your space and can contact me when you want to ”

I see a lot of these E children re connect with their parents, but it doesn’t seem easy and they don’t often seem like they are at all caring of their parents feelings." -- Yes. Never 'decide'/choose to be nice/respectful to your child (minor or adult). And then the WE aren't "caring of our parents feelings" according to THEM.

"she made an adult decision( not that she’s acting the adult) and it doesn’t include you, sadly. " -- That's both E&S as I described in the dysfunctional way earlier...

"I know what your daughter has done has got to have completely gutted you. She has rejected her parent with full force. I know it hurts deeply. You don’t deserve such treatment." -- and more of the same...

"My daughter sends me a letter, lists all her perceived faults of mine and mistreatments" -- She has been 'told' why she is estranged as well...

"if we don’t stop our children degrading and humiliating us, then that’s on us. The only way it’s going to work is if we set the boundaries and guidelines for how we want to be treated. If we don’t nothing ever is going to change. We are forever in the loop of mistreatment by them." -- And this is what "escalation of abuse" IS. 'Things' started to 'change'... Child got educated/older/married/emotionally healthier/mature etc. and was less tolerant of the 'love' their family was giving?

The abuser mentality is, "What I did in the past worked. I'll just do 'that' and add MORE..." which = Ramping UP the abuse which = AC runs further and faster AWAY.

Part 2 to follow...

HolyHannah Mon 21-Sept-20 06:32:28

Part 2:

"We parents want our EC to see these messages as loving but I think we need to consider that perhaps our EC do not see them positively. Maybe they do, maybe they don’t." Me -- "Don't just consider 'it'. You are correct. Your EAC does not see those types of messages as 'loving' OR 'positive'."

"please don’t disrespect yourself: “. Yesterday my daughter said she doesn’t have time for a relationship with me. I don’t want to disrespect her”.

I would be in shock. Are you?
I would be confused, and yes, angry. Are you there yet?"

And AGAIN -- EP's advise each other to "get angry" etc... According to ME, "abusers" are defaulted emotionally to ANGER...

"Please read elsewhere about contacting, writing letters, we’ve all been through this and it’s proved unsatisfactory and mostly escalated the issues at their end." And why is that? Hint/Answer -- "Because your AC sent you SOME of the 'reasons' and how many did You own/accept? NONE." -- And yet the EP still says, "I don't understand what the issue is..."

"it’s better not to apologise or defend myself (it just confirms for my daughter that I’ve done something wrong.) in reality the less reassurance I give my daughter that I am available as a kicking post, the more it is on her to consider herself as equally responsible for the relationship”." -- When your child has gone NC they already know You, the 'parent', have done wrong. And now YOU want Me/Us (EAC) to claim "equal" for the relationship breakdown?

As an added bonus saying they/the EP is a "kicking post"? Me -- "You think being 'kicked' by your child is bad? Seriously? And how do YOU think a child feels when kicked by their parent? Is that an equal 'thing'?"

Starblaze Mon 21-Sept-20 07:39:16

Holyhannah I came across a post by an EAC the other day and I will see if I can find it again but Wow.

She had screenshot a meme about how children don't ever want to self orphan and don't estrange for no reason and said it was a lie. She described a typically abusive mother and went on to describe how different she was to her mum and how she has lost her son anyway.

What followed was paragraphs of how much she had protected him, encouraged him into a specific career she believed played to his talents. She did everything for him and paid every expense. How close they were and how they had lived together 40 years....

Enmeshed, parentified, not allowed to grow up this son had finally run far away. She just couldn't see how she had stunted his emotional growth and used her childhood to maniuate him into the exact opposite relationship... Never let go of him being a child. From abnormal to abnormal.

Pantglas2 Mon 21-Sept-20 09:04:31

How sad Starblaze.

I do believe that individual children need individual parenting and no one size fits all, even within one family. I.e some children need early independence, others are more needy.

I have a friend who still tells her daughters what to do as adults and they seem happy with that! I also know that my daughter had her own ideas from childhood and wouldn’t listen to me if I told her the house was on fire - she needed to find out for herself!

Had I realised sooner we wouldn’t have estranged so it really comes down to knowing what your child needs at any given time.

Starblaze Mon 21-Sept-20 11:08:56

Pantglas yes they do, all individual. I certainly wouldn't be telling my AC what to do though, ever. Advice if it's asked for only.

Ultimately they get to decide whether the relationship is healthy and sometimes that happens aged 40... It seems to be becoming quite common for estrangement to happen later in life. I was surprised to learn I wasn't the only one to do it

HolyHannah Mon 21-Sept-20 14:00:44

Part 3:

"I’d like to say that, in time, you may view all of this with different sight. I do believe, and have seen here and among other parents, that if a child gets in touch someday, it really is too late. Home, as in parents and family, don’t stay the same. So, when EC return, they can’t fit or are not accepted anymore. Or, they are the only one who did not grow and change…."

The mentality on that is chilling... they can’t fit or are not accepted anymore -- Doesn't that sort of tell everything? It's funny to hear that from a 'good'/loving parent because that is something that I hear from child abuse victims... That feeling of 'not belonging'/not being "accepted" by their 'family'.

It's almost a "truth leak"... And then add the "Or, they are the only one who did not grow and change" and that's their issue. We did grow and change which is part of why estrangement occurs and yet parents act like it's the opposite. False beliefs/perceptions like that are their problem and there's no amount of trying to educate them is going to work.

"When a parent reaches enough turning points, they may not be willing to open themselves to the possible rekindling of pain." -- When were they ever 'open' and the relationship with their AC causes them 'pain'? Why do they think their AC walked away?

"I guess I say this because there’s an idea of a tearful reunion, a sorry son, a remorseful daughter… but things just don’t go back after they’ve changed shape." -- That is true. Once an AC realizes what they are being 'served' is not love, they aren't willing to return to the past relationship. It also shows a parental unwillingness to build a new/healthy relationship.

What EP's really want and it's the most common theme of all, THEY WANT THEIR SCAPEGAOT BACK not a healthy relationship.

HolyHannah Wed 07-Oct-20 06:15:42

Starblaze -- I posted the previous/above comment 3 weeks ago... Is this not sort of true of the conversation you had with your brother? Is this showing the same mentality you talked about?

Because I see a similarity in 'thinking' here...

Starblaze Wed 07-Oct-20 08:05:38

Yes it is Holyhannah

He totally let slip that actually all they wanted was to be absolved of blame so they could then push me out.

Telling me I must basically go back begging and it was all my fault. That I needed to tell the truth.... Then letting it slip that, that might not a actually be an option and they might not take me back.

The thing is, no matter how much abusive parents say "you estranged us you horrible people" that really is a technicality.

They emotionally or physically estranged us long before.

It was only a year into estrangement that conversation happened. They already put their image above all.

Not long after that my brother sucked me in again. Said he was sorry for taking sides and that he loved me.

The very next day he tried to force a reconsiliation with my mum again. When that failed, he tried to tell me my children must hate him. I said no, they understand adults argue sometimes, they would love to see you. He wouldn't accept that. It took me a few days to realise he wasn't going to respond to my contacts tying to get together.

His ultimate goal, to dump any shame attached and be the one in control by going no contact with me.

Again something figured out in counselling, I wasn't very knowledgeable about how abusive people think then so couldn't ever have understood without help.

It always about winning at all costs. They just don't see or understand we aren't interested in playing

rosecarmel Wed 07-Oct-20 12:14:29

Estrangement came early in life for me, although I didn't realize it at the time- I was 17/18- It occurred again when in my 20's- Then 40's- After the 40 mark, very low contact across the board for all family members although if a life event occurred would talk more-

Visiting was something my husband and myself never sorted before he died- Both he and I left our hometowns and the only vacations we'd ever taken was to visit our families who never once visited us with the exception of when one family member needed something and they drove to us to get it-

He and I never understood the " well, you moved away" attitude- I still don't- I've a sibling who went on cruises and traveled about, even within a few hours of where I live now-
They "talked" about visiting but never once did- In fact several traveled to places in close proximity to this address but didn't stop by-

We never understood the psychology that supported the "you moved" attitude and why we were considered "spiteful" when it was decided that there were other things and places we preferred to see come vacation time-

Can anyone explain it?

Smileless2012 Wed 07-Oct-20 12:51:32

To absolve one's self from any responsibility because in truth, they just can't be bothered perhaps.

Or perhaps the intention is/was never real to begin with so talks about possible future visits were just a smoke screen.

Our DS couldn't have moved much further away than Australia. He's been back to the UK twice and we've been over there 4 times. His move has of course impacted on the number of visits, but where there's a will there's a way.

HolyHannah Wed 07-Oct-20 14:40:44

rosecarmel -- "Can anyone explain it?" -- Well yeah... It's lip service and "keeping up appearances". If they say, "Oh yes. We'll visit..." it shows they 'care' and can tell other people (and themselves) how 'good' they are for caring about you.

The problem is, abusers never 'cared' about you. If you move 'too far away' (either emotionally or geographically) then you are not an easy/convenient victim anymore. Abusers don't want a real/healthy relationship. They want their Scapegoat/source of supply back. It's not worth the work to pretend that they care about you when you are not 'paying out' enough.

Smileless2012 Wed 07-Oct-20 15:40:36

Sometimes though the intent is genuine at the time but never happens. Moving away, leaving a place of work 'we must keep in touch' but it rarely if ever happens.

Happens in families where there's no history of abuse; other things get in the way I guess but it can be hurtful all the same especially if you make the effort and they don't.

Starblaze Wed 07-Oct-20 15:47:32

The diffence between the scapegoat and the golden child can highlight things

I move here, no one ever drove to me, always me doing the donkey work with tired children/newborns in tow.

Golden child brother moves here and they come every week.

Still didn't come to me lol

Its enough to give you a complex until lots and lots of professional help

Smileless2012 Wed 07-Oct-20 16:01:36

Sometimes it's the difference of expectations from a son and a daughter. It's OK for son's not to put themselves out but not if it's a daughter.

HolyHannah Wed 07-Oct-20 17:38:28

When it comes to abusive parents there's always an excuse as to why the siblings are not equal. And yes, sometimes it is based on gender.

In my 'family' boys were good/could do no wrong and girls were bad. I was informed of this by my 'mom'.

Having differing exceptions of your children based on gender is a serious concern as is carrying the mentality in the first place.

Smileless2012 Wed 07-Oct-20 17:52:12

I agree it's a serious concern and enables a parent to be in denial that they are scapegoating one child ie their daughter and favouring their son, by making him the golden child.

HolyHannah Wed 07-Oct-20 18:10:44

Smileless -- It goes a lot deeper then gender. For example, if a 'mom' thinks it is up to women to maintain communications and she only has sons, then she will quite often push/thrust that expectation onto the daughter-in-law.

When the daughter-in-law does not fulfill the role 'properly' the parent sometimes gets angry and that drives son and DiL further away... Or worse (like my in-laws) wanted to be able to treat me the same way they treated husband (their Scapegoat child). Obviously if I wasn't tolerating that from my 'family' I certainly wasn't going to with his, no matter how much I love Him.

I have seen that scenario play it too many times to count. My 'mom' wouldn't bow to her MiL so we only had limited contact with my dad's side. Just to keep up appearances and hope for a part of the estate... They need not have wasted their time. In true abuser fashion my granny divided the estate by how much chaos it could create. One sibling got the house, 2 got substantial cash payouts and my parents got the equivalent of cab-fare.

rosecarmel Wed 07-Oct-20 19:49:29

Smileless, I'm talking over the course of decades- If it were "intended" I think they had ample time lol ..

One of them went as far as to make plans- My children all altered their schedules to accomodate- The day came and went- No phone call, no text, no contact-

Starblaze, yes- Hours in large rental vehicles filled with sticky children and adults with their knees up to their chins or pretzeled in to fit- Road games and music and audio books and "are where there yets"- Tons of wonderful memories!

HolyHannah, can't say I never bought into the lip service, truly believing they would visit- I used to consider what might interest them: city, country, both- Just go with the flow-

Can't tell you how often I forget they're golden -- until reminded- I consider them less as time goes by-

I haven't got a favorite child- Or grandchild- We're a struggling family collectively, on the mend- Estrangement awaits around every bend- Whatever it takes for any one of us to heal, I embrace- Including my mountain of failures-

Starblaze Wed 07-Oct-20 20:22:58

I don't think it would have mattered if I were a boy and my brother a girl. My mum never forgave my dad for leaving her and that was my first role as emotional punchbag. My brother or sister in this scenario was the product of the marriage that lasted (somehow).

I think it would have been a different kind of abuse because of the fundamental differences in sex.

For instance, my mum was jealous of me as a girl... As perceived competition for my stepdad (I know, utterly daft but she expressed it many times), as a younger version of her etc with the hair colour she had always wanted but couldn't achieve... I could go on.

If I were a boy, maybe it would be my partner who was the competition. But I guess the guilt trips, lying, hurtful comments and manipulation would be the same.

Worship at the alter of mum and accept her unjust wrath as a duty for crimes unknown

HolyHannah Fri 09-Oct-20 02:31:39

www.youtube.com/watch?v=OnSsx8ifAH8

The comments on this video also make a good read.

Starblaze Sat 10-Oct-20 11:01:46

Holyhannah I listened to that cleaning yesterday and I will listen again because I took a lot from it. Thank you

rosecarmel Sun 11-Oct-20 04:33:18

The comment sections for their videos provide comic relief and a soft place to fall-

I posted a link to this video in the other thread but will share it here too because I found it very helpful-

3 things the narc (mean people) wants from you:

m.youtube.com/watch?v=Wx3V1RRoc_A