Frightened I will never see her or overcome this block

No I am not wrong, and the fact that I am estranged doesn't mean that my opinion or advice is any the less worthy than anyone else's. I'm also an a abused child survivor.

I fail to see how anyone cannot see that elena's D expecting her to cut off her son and his family and her H isn't demonstrating serious issues.

How dare you accuse me of dragging others down just because you don't agree with my opinion having begun your post "with respect Smileless" when you clearly have no respect for anyone's opinion that doesn't coincide with your own.

elana is sadly unlikely to be able to repair her relationship with her D until her D understands that her demands are unrealistic.

(Sarcasm on)
D is unrealistic and Elana says her gd was not sexually abused because there was no physical sexual abuse

(Sarcasm off)

Who is denial here?

The idea of perpetuating to elana that her daughter is a liar who "needs help" is irresponsible at best.

There is so much dysfunctional thinking in what elana has written so blaming her daughter and saying that she is the sole problem is scapegoating the daughter!

Saying that there are only 'issues' because elana's daughter is "making up problems" is more gaslighting and denial of the overall family problems which are glaring in her comments.

By all means elana, approach your daughter as if she is a liar. When you think everything someone is saying to you is a lie, any truth your daughter tells will be viewed as the same... A lie. So your daughter is now in a never win situation because of YOUR dysfunctional view of her and denial of the overall dysfunction in your family.

Once again the experts at being estranged are giving 'advice' to those that are about to join the fully estranged club. It's rather like taking the advice of an optometrist that goes blind from a preventable eye disease... You might want to find a different doctor.

And once again the experts who are only able to see estrangement or possible estrangement from their own perspective ie as an EAC are unable or unwilling to consider that an AC could be in the wrong.

elena's D lied when she said that her children didn't want to talk to their GM. It is irresponsible to say otherwise just as it's irresponsible to think that her D's request to cut off her son, his family and her own H is acceptable and doesn't demonstrate that she, elena's D, has some serious issues.

As I posted earlier elena my advice is to refrain from 'phoning your 12 year old GC. He'll be struggling with his mother's mixed messages that it's OK to accept gifts from your GM but not OK for you to see her. All you can do is hope that your D gets the help that she needs and be there for her if and when she asks you to be.

There's plenty of evidence of dysfunctional thinking on this thread but it isn't coming from you.

.

No I am not wrong

Yes. Yes you are! Your post was absolutely sickening to read. It is dripping in manipulation. You were not giving advice, or an opinion, you are actively encouraging Elana to pursue a course of action which will ensure that she becomes estranged. You know this because you are not stupid. How dare I? How dare you! How dare you do that to someone and how dare you plead ignorance over it.

elana is sadly unlikely to be able to repair her relationship with her D until her D understands that her demands are unrealistic

Elana, this is absolutely not true. Please see a counsellor to discuss your situation. You can always invite your daughter to join you at a later session. Your situation is not beyond repair...yet.

Smileless -- elana doesn't even understand what child sexual abuse is and you are saying her daughter is a liar. She may very well be but that doesn't make elana any more emotionally healthy then her daughter. You are perpetuating black and white thinking.

elana's daughter may very well be 'wrong' but that doesn't make elana 'right'. elana approaching her daughter with the mind-set that her daughter is a 'liar' will taint all her interactions with her child and will certainly not lead to an emotionally healthier family overall.

What you see as Us 'blaming' elana is not the case. I am saying there is all kinds of dysfunction going on and rug sweeping and calling her daughter a "mentally ill liar" is not going to help fix the situation.

How can elana's daughter have open and honest communication with her mom if her mom thinks everything she says is a lie? She can't. elana's daughter is in a no win situation. No win situations lead to full estrangement.

She does understand what sexual abuse is. Are you being deliberately obtuse? She said her GD wasn't physically sexually abused; she accepts and acknowledges that what her GD witnessed was abusive.

elana doesn't think that everything her D says is a lie; where has she said so? Again, are you being deliberately obtuse?

I said her D lied when she said the GC didn't want to talk to her and she, her D, didn't know why. Her 12 year old GC came to the window for the sole purpose of talking to his GM, so how could his mother have been telling the truth?

I didn't say elena's D was a mentally ill liar; your quotation marks are miss placed and once again demonstrates how you twist what others post for your own agenda; I said her D clearly has issues.

Both elena, her D and the GC are in a no win situation unless it appears elena does her D's bidding and cuts off her son, his family and her H, and who would benefit if she did?

elena, Please reach out to a therapist to allow you to sort through this yourself.
At the end of the day, you can’t change what your daughter will do, and you need to look after yourself first.
Maybe your daughter needs help, maybe she doesn’t, we don’t know. All you can, and should, focus on is how to help yourself.

Your D has a problem that needs professional help and all you can do is hope that she realises this and gets the help she needs. But not a word about the dysfunctional thinking being demonstrated by elana in her comments. Who is focusing on one side and not looking at the part elana is playing?

Grandson's reaction to elana showing up is not evidence of anything. Let me repeat that. His behavior is not 'evidence' of anything. Confused child victims react in all kinds of ways including being/acting happy to see their abusers. Using that as 'proof' that elana's daughter is a liar is not helpful and perpetuates dysfunctional thinking. How obtuse does one have to be to not understand that?

maybe your daughter likes her independence.......maybe she thinks she can cope on her own.....maybe one day she will contact you . you could send a card on birthdays and anniversaries. hurtful yes ,but its the way she wants it.

Actually Smileless2012 the EAC here are giving advice to prevent permanent estrangement, you are egging on some pretty dysfunctional thinking. Your being "right" in this situation will be the end of that relationship because mum won't see that she has work to do. Of course she will want to listen to your one voice rather than many others. The daughter is not here for us to hear her side but we have heard mum's and its just not good. She has not taken a single piece of advice, repeats different variations of the same story and is also willing to sacrifice that relationship permanently to be "right".

Her daughter needed her. She didn't even remain neutral as she is sending other family after her daughter. She chose a side and it wasn't her daughters.

What a shame.

I've no idea what the ongoing situation is with Sally, but I do know that people will warmly greet abusers with smiles to disarm them because they are a threat in one way or another-

It's done in an effort to keep some sense equilibrium before it all goes to sh*t again- It can't prevent it, but it can stall it a bit-

The 'it's me or them/him/her' ultimatum never works in any relationship in the long term.

An AC shouldn't ask their parent to put them before a sibling, their other parent of their parent's partner, anymore than a parent should ask their AC to put them before that AC's husband/wife/partner/p'si.l. An AC shouldn't ask their parent to put one GC before another.

To do so and/or to agree that that is the right approach is dysfunctional thinking.

elena hasn't sent "other family after her daughter", other family members have made their own decisions. Her H although he had virtually no contact with his step D or her children, now wants no contact at all and who can blame him after the false allegations she's made, that he abused his GD and his own D's. She's even accused her own brother of abuse.

Her D has a problem that needs professional help and all elena can do is hope she realises this, gets the help she needs and be there for her if and when she asks her to be.

It's not a matter of sides, it's a matter of support. Daughter got none. Daughters fears and worries were stomped all over. Daughters son was exposed to sexual behaviour and she is somehow "mentally ill" for being upset about it. Daughters son is apparently a liar anyway. Daughter is looking at court threats within just 3 months of the incident. Daughter is receiving constant harassment from mum and other family. Daughter has had no time to even process what has happened and that is without even going into what the relationship was like before with the cold, distant stepfather and a mum who only wants the grandchildren, not her daughter who learly is still speaking to her.

We get all that without even hearing Daughters side.

Okies.

elena hasn't sent "other family after her daughter", other family members have made their own decisions

How do you know that? She hasn’t clarified either way. So how have you come to that conclusion?

Again, it is sickening listening to you manipulate Elana into choosing the path of estrangement.

Her D has a problem that needs professional help and all elena can do is hope she realises this, gets the help she needs and be there for her if and when she asks her to be

Elana, this is absolutely not true. Please see a counsellor to discuss your situation. You can always invite your daughter to join you at a later session. Your situation is not beyond repair...yet. Please don’t follow other posters into estrangement.

Daughters son was exposed to sexual behaviour and she is somehow "mentally ill" for being upset about it

You couldn’t make it up! It is sickening!

Estranged children are not champions of estrangement. We didn't want to be in this situation. If we could have fixed our issues and had beautiful relationships with our estranged parents we would have.

We couldn't fix it alone.

Love meets us half way.

When one party cannot except any fault or responsibility for the breakdown of a relationship, then its not love.

Its very strange to be told that "EAC can't even consider that an AC might be in the wrong" when we have literally been the only ones not championing estrangement on this thread.

We cannot speak to Elana's daughter, only her mum who needs to take responsibility for her part in this to have a relationship with her daughter and I am guessing that is not on her wishlist anyway. Grandchildren only.

Yet daughter is expected to give access to her children to a woman who she feels unloved and unsupported by. Minor children, one of which has been called a liar in a very serious issue.

If the courts could see these messages or Cafcass, no way would visitation be granted.

Who said the D was "mentally ill"? Who is advocating that elena become estranged from her D.

EP's aren't champions of estrangement either and not all of them wanted to be in this situation. If many could have fixed the issues with their AC and enjoyed a healthy and loving relationship with them, they'd have done so.

Not all EP's can claim they were willing to do so and not all EAC can claim they were either.

Not all EP's are above reproach and not all EAC are either.

Whenever you do that Smileless2012, taking what I say and twisting it to suit your needs and then throwing how we must never ever forget estranged parents have such a terrible awful time at me, and some AC are so mean and horrible, like I have ever said differently (reader be aware I have never said differently) I read you in Elmyra's voice for some reason. Makes me laugh every time.

I really didn’t want to engage you Smileless, as you are one of the most aggressive and argumentative posters on Gransnet.

But here I am. Whilst you talk everyone round and round in circles.

If many could have fixed the issues with their AC and enjoyed a healthy and loving relationship with them, they'd have done so

Elana has a small window of opportunity to do this and you are encouraging her not to.

Who is advocating that elena become estranged from her D

You are! All the while pleading ignorance. Do you really think that other posters are that stupid that they can’t see what you are doing?

Who said the D was "mentally ill"?

You did. Or, at least, you certainly implied it:

It's your D who needs therapy

Your D has a problem that needs professional help

elena’s D, has some serious issues

And again, pleading ignorance. How stupid do you think people are?

You’ve really exposed yourself tonight.

Message deleted by Gransnet. Here's a link to our Talk Guidelines.

An AC shouldn't ask their parent to put them before a sibling, their other parent of their parent's partner, anymore than a parent should ask their AC to put them before that AC's husband/wife/partner/p'si.l. An AC shouldn't ask their parent to put one GC before another.

When it comes to cases of abuse and abusers, it is absolutely okay to say, "If you are going to allow 'x' to be a part of your life, I won't be around you or allow my children around you." Not long ago we had someone on here talking about how her son had sexually abused his 2 sisters. It's not unreasonable at all for the Sister's to say, "Him in your life or Us."

To do so and/or to agree that that is the right approach is dysfunctional thinking. Nope. It is not.

When it comes to abuse, both children are now victims of sexual abuse and yet elana said, "there is no sexual abuse going on in my family period." Yes these IS! It doesn't get more clear-cut. It has been introduced whether elana wants to recognize it or not. And 'not' is going to end in estrangement because she is in denial about how abuse, especially sexual abuse, works. That is justification enough (regardless of daughters mental health) to keep her children away from her.

There's a line between enabling dysfunctional thinking and full on cheer-leading it. "Her D has a problem that needs professional help and all elena can do is hope she realises this, gets the help she needs and be there for her if and when she asks her to be." THAT is certainly not ALL elana can do!!!

elana doesn't think that everything her D says is a lie; where has she said so? Again, are you being deliberately obtuse? No, not obtuse, equilateral or any other other type of triangle. However, I know how dysfunctional thinkers behave and now that she has what she thinks/believes is 'proof' that daughter is lying about the children not wanting to talk to her, this will/does lead to the mentality of everything daughter says is a lie.

Because my 'mom' has "selective amnesia" and just "can't remember" the shite things she did to me even after I recalled some events in vivid detail, makes me a 'liar' in her world. Way to encourage that mentality in others' Smileless...

As MoD said, "It is easy to see why you are estranged Smileless, no matter how much you plead ignorance over that too." As I have said before, your DiL may be a Narc witch herself, but I don't believe for one moment that she is 100% the reason you are estranged.

And here's another thing dysfunctional thinkers/abusers/enablers need to grasp... If abuse and abusers were 'easy to spot' and STOP would the world have Bill C. and Harvey W. as examples? How many 'accusers'/victims had to be created before just one of those abusers was finally exposed?

So for those of Us who recognize what real dysfunctional thinking looks like, We are trying to break the cycle before the victim count continues to mount.

The 'other side' has a vested interest in keeping those dysfunction beliefs/thought patterns and victim blaming mentalities in place -- to protect their interests/position of authority/being 'better'/superior/entitled and more 'deserving' then their 'lessers' -- those that they ABUSE. Victims that are in true recovery don't want to/won't play those games or ignore the "red flags" of emotionally unhealthy people/mentality.

Just like Smileless and her assertions that children estrange over not getting ponies or not being sent to the right private school... The 'proof' of that? Other EP's said/claimed 'that' as the 'reason' they are estranged.

Healthy/rational thinking dictates that IF EAC do so over "lack of ponies" or the 'wrong' "private school" etc. that these EP's should be able to find the corresponding EAC that are saying what they believe.

Oddly, EP's cannot find those examples of children that estranged for 'those reasons' and have to fall back to the old, "My 'proof' is that other EP's say the same things, believe and agree with Me."

@Motherofdragons - your message to Smileless that you can easily see why she is estranged is one of the cruellest posts I have ever seen on GN.

The original poster, Sally, is clearly in great emotional pain and came on here looking for support, not to witness some odious, point scoring, slanging match. She does not need posters projecting about their own or other people's situations, she needs comfort and advice about her own situation.

The thoughts and opinions of anyone who has no care for the poster they're responding too, but only wish to use someone else's pain and suffering as a soap box to further their own agenda, mean nothing to me.

PF it's not the first time. I often find that those who know nothing believe they know everything.