The 'Perception Filter'...

HolyHannah that video has been posted on here before and was met with the same response. I think it may have been on a thread which has since been deleted. I will have a search.

I noticed, however, that it only took a few hours of you mentioning the video before the attempts to discredit the speaker were made. I’m sure some here could see that coming and can relate only too well to what we say being discredited before we have even said it. Even one’s method of delivery is used as a tool to devalue what they have to say.

It's a clear example of someone pursuing their own agenda of attacking EP's because of their personal experiences

This is why it is dangerous to assign intent to someone. Not only is that quite an assumption to make, but it is wrong. And again, a statement based on no evidence.

The speaker has thousands of videos ranging from abusive parents, abusive spouses, abusive adult children, abusive employers, communities, churches and even where he percieves the writer themselves to be abusive. He doesn’t care who the abuser is, it makes no difference to what he has to say. To say he has an agenda against estranged parents is untrue and only serves to undermine what he has to say.

I didn't reverse your statement Starblaze, I commented on it.

So you have read the book I referred too earlier on this thread HolyHannah. That was all I wanted to know.

Smileless -- I don't comment on a video or article or anything else unless I've watched it/read it. Can you say the same?

A very selfish, self serving comment Smileless. Shame you cannot see that and the issues it causes for others around you.

I’m not sure what disturbed me more about Sheri McGregor’s Done with the Crying. The fact that she made no effort or attempt whatsoever to mend or repair relations with her son and his wife, or that she recommends shopping for therapists until someone takes you at your word that you DID NOTHING WRONG!

Her reasoning for her estrangement goes something like this: her son cried too much as a baby, so she was always tired and therefore took care of the baby less, and as a result of this extra independence, he was too comfortable being alone and thus had no remorse about abandoning his family.

So, essentially, it was her son’s fault. He, and his crying, is the reason she wasn’t able to care for him as much as a baby. She DID NOTHING WRONG.

Madgran, so there's always been a global balance that could be easily observed, it's never been in a position of better or worse as a result of prior generational behavior-

The More Loving One
W. H. Auden - 1907-1973

Looking up at the stars, I know quite well
That, for all they care, I can go to hell,
But on earth indifference is the least
We have to dread from man or beast.

How should we like it were stars to burn
With a passion for us we could not return?
If equal affection cannot be,
Let the more loving one be me.

Admirer as I think I am
Of stars that do not give a damn,
I cannot, now I see them, say
I missed one terribly all day.

Were all stars to disappear or die,
I should learn to look at an empty sky
And feel its total dark sublime,
Though this might take me a little time.

MotherOfDragons I remember reading that too. It's horrifying

Sharon W. says this to EAC, “Here is a short form list of what is happening to your life:

1. You are practicing hate. -- Estrangement is practicing hate? Nope.

2. You are practicing violent abuse toward your parents and to your own family. -- Walking away is "violent abuse"? Hardly.

3. The way you treat your parents causes them physical and emotional pain. -- That's a two way street.

4. The way you treat your parents causes them to develop mental diseases such as PTSD, depression, obsessive thoughts, low self esteem, aggressive and self destructive behavior, distrust of entering relationships, isolation, anxiety, panic attacks and obsessive thought of suicide. -- If a fully mature adult cannot handle rejection to the point of ending up with those conditions due to estrangement, their mental health likely was not as good as they claim it was (I was a 'good' parent) to begin with. Healthy parents raise healthy kids.

5. The way you treat your parents causes them to develop physical illnesses such as chronic toxic stress which leads to inflammation of body organs which leads to heart attacks, arthritis, and irritable bowel syndrome. -- Estrangement and abusive AC are the cause of all the parents physical ailments... Guilt trip much?

6. The way you treat your parents produces feelings of abandonment and ostracism which is experience as physical pain on a daily basis. This is torture. -- A tad dramatic and more guilt tripping...

7. The way you treat your parents shortens their life expectancy by 11.4%. That takes away about 9 ½ years of life on the average. -- I'd love to know where those stats came from...

8. The way you treat your parents condemns them to living alone without close relationships experiencing severe loneliness the remainder of their lives. -- So you're unable to build any meaningful relationship if a child estranges?

9. The way you treat your parents is a hate crime against your own children and those of 3 generations to follow you. -- At least that's admitting that abuse IS generational...

10. The way you treat your parents condemns your own children to depression, low self esteem, the inability to love unconditionally and potential addictive behavior. Imagine what it is doing to you and your family or better yet go to a doctor and ask.” -- Yeah... I did that. My doctor wouldn't agree with this list either.

Blimey

When "bred" to be a goat, anything you choose to do outside of the framework of the stable will be considered poo and stinky- Not gold, not roses-

It's shocking isn't it. Not every EP's experience of course but some, if not all of the 10 points are experienced by many EP's. One may not expect any of them to be an abusive EP's experience but then not all parents are estranged because they were abusive.

What I like about Sharon's contribution to the subject of estrangement is that she doesn't need to resort to insults. She wouldn't say about EAC for example that "a large percentage of you are narcissistic toxic scumbags".

That alone makes her work worthy of consideration even if ultimately it's disagreed with.

Smileless -- Sharon just says what EP's want to hear. Everything is their child(ren)s fault and she offers zero advice to ending estrangement.

She should have added #11 -- The way you treat your parents causes Global Warming.

The fact that you agree with that speaks volumes. Sharon (from what I have read) has managed to alienate ALL her living adult children. She's another expert at being estranged not an expert on estrangement. But she did NOTHING to warrant estrangement with her attitude such as it is...

Apart from that one EP you posted before I have never seen any estranged parent say the things I need to to end estrangement Holyhannah. Unfortunately those estranged parents who have amassed a large following give terrible advice that will only alienate their followers children further. Estranged children are not to be listened too when we have a lot to say that could help end estrangement. In fact, even posters here that were thoroughly kind and gentle had to be bullied away, to protect the status quo here.

HolyHannah is that from The Devil’s Dilema: Abadoned Parents? I haven’t read the book, so cannot comment, but your summary makes for a disappointing read. More of the same really - what about me? Look at what you’re doing to me? I DID NOTHING WRONG? And even if I did (which I didn’t) look at the effect your actions are having on me!

This is a review by Issendai:

An incoherent mess whose central idea is that estrangement is a violent hate crime, and that people who cut off their parents are trying to emotionally, spiritually, or even physically murder them. The author is so wrapped up in her own perspective that even when she addresses estranged adult children directly, most of her examples of how estrangement is affecting the adult children's lives are actually examples of how their parents are affected. She truly can't see beyond her own pain and its world-swallowing importance.

Her advice is beyond awful. For example, she believes that if someone is an alcoholic or a drug addict, they need their family's help and support, and it's cruel to cut them off. She recommends that children of addicts go to Al-Anon to learn how to resume a relationship with their parents with appropriate boundaries. (Fortunately, Al-Anon understands ideas like "let the addict hit bottom" and "put your own oxygen mask on first.") When a parent can't get through to their married child, she recommends getting the child's spouse's parents and siblings involved. What she recommends is a list of the kinds of behaviors that get parents cut off.

Interestingly, the author is the subject of quite a few legal studies. In 1993, after a two-month courtship and a seven-week engagement, her fiance, Richard Springs, broke up with her... and she sued him for breach of promise to the tune of $178,000. The case was eventually thrown out, and Wildey sued a personal friend who gave her legal counsel, claiming the friend's bad advice amounted to malpractice and caused Wildey to lose the case. Both cases were shot through with badly written briefs, opportunistically reinterpreted evidence, and interpretations of the law that went beyond incompetent and into delusional. The legal analyses of the cases are fascinating reading, and shed light on the teen years of the children who are now estranged from Wildey.

Quite a few estranged parents do find comfort in this book, but mainly because it reflects their own grief and pain. It makes them feel less alone. That's a worthy goal. But what the book doesn't do is contain insight into estrangement or effective advice for reconciling

As someone who works in addiction, the comments in bold are horrifying and so very, very dangerous.

I have looked at the link again and still cant find any links to research. I assume no one else has either as no one has come back on my question?

Regarding people saying what others want to hear ...I think that is quite often the case with stuff on the internet..."experts" say what the "group" they are speaking to wants to hear. I can't comment directly on Sharon W.

I don't know the answer to your question Madgran but I do know that yes there are "experts" who advise no contact but there are also many who also give advice for setting boundaries, grey rock and all sorts of ways to maintain a relationship with an abusive parent. I know because I was very relieved to find I had tried them all before estrangement without even knowing there were hundreds of thousands of other estranged children out there. It was very important to me to know I had done my absolute best. Estrangement carries enough guilt as it is. Also very frustrating that three guilt I feel doesn't really belong to me but my mum.

I'm rambling tired

I have never met an estranged child or "expert" recommending estrangement for anything less than physical, sexual or emotional abuse though. This is important. Most also give very clear pictures of what abuse is too.

Also before I go to bed, those same sources of information and books that I have read talk at length about abusive behaviours/traits/characteristics/fleas or whatever you want to call them that can damage the estranged child's future relationships if left unchecked. There is generally no "you are a perfect, innocent victim", it is more "this is the terrible thing that happened to you, its not your fault but it is your responsibility to move forward". The focus is very much on healing.

Madgran -- If you read the list of 10 things she is putting on to EAC as I posted, it is nothing but about her feelings/the parent's feelings. There is nothing on that list that is accurate or backed by any clinical research that I have ever read.

There is so much dysfunctional thinking at play it is jaw dropping. Estrangement/No Contact is "violent abuse" and "this is torture". Full stop. This person doesn't even understand what abuse IS. You cannot abuse someone if you have no contact with them and it's certainly not "torture" to choose not to have a relationship with someone, even a parent.

If an ex-spouse was saying anything like that about their former partner everyone would be saying, "You have serious attachment issues you need to deal with. Your spouse leaving you is not abuse or torture. It is not up to your ex to worry about your medical concerns, you are an adult and should be able to look after yourself. If your spouse left and it shortens your life, what can they do about that? Should they stay in an unhappy relationship to spare you? What makes your happiness more important then your spouses choice to leave? If you can't build a new relationship after the divorce, how is it their fault if you end up alone forever?"

Yet you substitute child into those same comments/points and now those attitudes are okay? Scary creepy as far as I can see.

@HolyHannah, but none of that matters because she didn’t insult anyone!

Hi Holy Hannah My question about research earlier in the thread was not about Sharon W but about the earlier video. I posted as below:

*I have listened to the video. I am wondering where his research sources are in terms of statistics for statements such as "a large percentage of you are narcissistic toxic scumbags" referring to "baby boomers" as a generation. I understand that from his work he will have access to many many examples of toxic, abusive parents but I dont understand how that can translate to "a large percentage" of an entire generation ...presumably across the world.

Does anyone know if he gives sources for that data ...I couldnt find any details but I know I have a tendency to miss links in videos etc if they aren't staring me in the face (or even if they are sometimes!! ?)*

That's true Madgran and not just with what's available on the inter net. It stands to reason that EAC will want to read about and hear from those talking about estrangement from their perspective, just as EP's do the same from their's.

To say that Sharon Wildey only says what EP's want to hear can be said about anyone who writes for that particular audience and equally applies to anyone whose audience is EAC.

Madgran77 I doubt research sources in terms of statistics for statements such as "a large percentage of you are narcissistic toxic scumbags" exist! If any such studies existed, I would love to read them too! But I don’t know how a study into percentages of a population being narcissistic toxic scumbags could be set up, never mind carried out.

From reading your posts over the years though, I think that you are an incredibly intelligent woman and that you know “data” into such a claim doesn’t (and couldn’t) exist. And I understand the point you are making.

Regarding people saying what others want to hear ...I think that is quite often the case with stuff on the internet..."experts" say what the "group" they are speaking to wants to hear

I absolutely agree with you. However the individual we are discussing doesn’t sell himself as an expert on anything. And his “group” is made up of abuse victims, not solely child abuse victims of abusive parents.

I understand that from his work he will have access to many many examples of toxic, abusive parents

And toxic, abusive spouses, in laws, adult children, employers, extended family, friends, religious communities etc. He may have had abusive parents, but that is not his focus. He doesn’t hesitate to bring to the writer’s attention their own dysfunction and if he percieves that individual to in fact be the abuser, then he will let them know.

It is the reason there is a Reddit thread dedicated to him - from scorned writers who didn’t like what he had to say, to those who disagree with his political views (I certainly don’t share his political viewpoint, but nor do I think anyone should be crucified for having a difference of opinion to me either).