Overcomplicated

Exactly Madgran some "parents deny their accountability" not all but some. This thread was started by a formerly EP who took full responsibility for her estrangement.

Like you, I believe what EP's and EAC say about their experiences and I know from personal experience, here on GN, that because I say we are not responsible for our estrangement that there are some who refuse to accept that parents can be estranged through no fault of their own.

If that's not an example of invalidation, I don't know what is.

Starblaze you said this so well!
“ Questions when trying to give the right advice great

Questions when trying to understand someone and their situation wonderful

Questions that help give the right support fantastic

Questions about the validity of the professional advice someone has been given that has not only been proven 100% accurate to them by their own experience but the prescribed treatment has shown to have a huge positive impact on their lives OK, maybe but don't push it

Repeatedly disagreeing against the advice of a professional and questioning it's validity despite being given situational evidence to the contrary Stop. Just stop. That's not ok

Telling someone they are imagining it and shouldn't be hurt by an interrogation on the subject and that your opinion is equally as valid as the professionals knowing very little about them and never having met their abuser ridiculous

It causes untold issues here when this could be such a wonderful supportive environment.”

Madgran It becomes invalidating when the questions you asked are answered based on the poster’s experience, and yet you continue to question and assert that they are wrong in their experience.

Oh yes it certainly does become invalidating MamaBear and I should know as I have had plenty of experience of that here on GN.

GN used to be a wonderful supportive environment for those living with estrangement. It was our estrangement that brought me to GN in the first place more than 7 years ago, but sadly the opposite appears to be be on the increase.

Invalidation is when someone makes a definitive statement like, "Unless your parent was professionally diagnosed you cannot be the victim of narcissistic abuse."

Not true and very invalidating to my life experience...

Yes, I agree that that is invalidating HolyHannah and I should know, because I've actually lost count of the number of times my experiences have been invalidated.

Smileless That’s sad that a place that was once for support now feels invalidating. I wonder if part of that is in the way different people approach these forums. Some may ask a lot of questions to try to get to the bottom of what caused the estrangement in order to help resolve it. Others may be looking for validation that they are blameless in the estrangement. Still others may just want support from people who feel the same pain, having experienced the same loss, while knowing that it will never be resolved. And still others may be trying to convince the “other side” to take the blame, so they can project that onto their own experience. It would certainly be easy enough for you and I to do that, you having issues with your DIL and me with my MIL.

It becomes invalidating when the questions you asked are answered based on the poster’s experience, and yet you continue to question and assert that they are wrong in their experience.

I can understand that completely MamaBear and would agree with you but, like others have already pointed out, I've seen a great deal of invalidation of others experiences towards EP. There have been innumerable instances where I've seen that EP have been held to account and told, in no uncertain terms, that they were to blame for their situation and no amount of explanations, details of their estrangement or pleas to be heard, have brought any understanding, empathy or kindness. They've been treated harshly and dismissively on many occassions. That's why I said that "respect" for want of a better word, really does have to be in both directions. Wouldn't you agree?

HolyHannah
I still stand by my statement, you have yet to convince me I am wrong.

Bridie -- You are free to believe whatever you want.

That doesn't change the reality of my situation and I have no desire to prove you 'wrong'.

That is your opinion of my situation and you are free to have 'it'.

It doesn't alter the facts of my situation.

Madgran It becomes invalidating when the questions you asked are answered based on the poster’s experience, and yet you continue to question and assert that they are wrong in their experience

Now that makes absolute sense MamaBear, thankyou. Although I assume you meant "when the question asked" as opposed to "you asked", directed at me personally, as I am not aware of doing that on this thread or any other.

I wonder if part of that is in the way different people approach these forums

I think that is very true MamaBear .

If you are wrong it does alter the facts of your situation, in my opinion.

Bridie -- Short of providing my personal medical information and references to my Doctor so he could explain it all to you, I'm not sure what I can say...

Needless to say and as I said before, I will stick with the professional/clinical advice of my Doctor...

The doctor who didn't diagnose your parent ?
I rest my case.

Bridie -- But He did... Through ME. And when did this become a trial?

Bridie -- Perhaps you should re-read my post from Thu 23-Jul-20 03:25:26

Here's the important parts:

"Chewbacca and others on the question of, "Can a professional diagnose someone with NPD in abstentia/from my mental health issues?"

I should have added the answer is almost always "No." and the reason is, no one usually knows a person long enough or spends enough time with them to be able to give enough viable information to a Doctor. The parent/child relationship differs in that regard because a child like me, who grew up with her behavior well into my 'adult years', has a closer perspective.

As I said, I am sure there are other full blown NPD's in my family due to the traits I saw in those people. Since I don't/didn't have a close enough relationship to those people, my Doctor would never call any other family member a Narcissist and neither would I.

There's much in what you say MamaBear, especially when you said about "others may be trying to convince the 'other side' to take the blame so they can project that onto their own experience".

It would I agree be easy for you and I to do that but all I ask, all I have ever asked, is that my account be accepted the way I accept other's accounts.

Chewbacca has actually summarised my experience here very well in her post. Too many EP's who have come here looking for support, understanding and just somewhere to share their experiences, and be comforted in the knowledge that they are not alone, have been driven away.

I'm not suggesting that they have left in vast numbers but for me, just one person who has been unable to find the support and understanding they are looking for and leaves, is one too many.

I think the fact that there are more individual posters to be found on a regular basis on the support thread, than there are on other estrangement threads speaks volumes.

Holy Hannah I can see why you would find that statement upsetting/invalidating within your context.

I also noted what you said re the parent/child relationship being the exception to the rule in terms of diagnosis.

I accept that your Dr did diagnose your mother as a Narcissist. As far as I can see the problem now is arising because some posters do not, from their experiences and observations, accept that a Dr can do that. That is their opinion. It doesn't change the fact that your Dr did do that with you, nor does it change the fact of your experiences with your Dr to help you in your situation

What I am trying to say in a rather long winded way is that I don't think you have to feel your experience is invalidated because someone else doesn't think that experience is possible. Does that make sense?

You nailed it Madgran...

You nailed it Madgran…

Oh good! My pondering was worth it then!

So therefore, if that is the case, can you clarify for me why, someone giving that opinion as an opinion based on their experiences is "invalidating" as so often seems to be the concern on so many threads? I am asking the question because "invalidation" through what seems to be basically disagreeing, seems to cause so much trouble, with people getting very upset and angry and accusations getting thrown around, and threads getting derailed as nearly happened on this one.

An interesting question Madgran especially as it seems that what is asking a question from one is so often taken as invalidating by another.

To invalidate is to make or prove an argument or statement unsound or erroneous. By definition invalidation is the process of denying, rejecting or dismissing someone's feelings. Invalidation sends the message that a persons subjective emotional experience is inaccurate, insignificant or un acceptable.

It should be clear then the difference between disagreeing with what someone says and invalidating their experience.

Madgran77

*There's a difference between sharing an opinion and presenting a fact*

Well yes! I agree and I don't believe I suggested otherwise.

Taking your example from my perspective:

"Some parents deny their accountability".

Based on observations and experience over many years I agree that is a fact because I have specifically seen it. I also believe posters on here who have said that happened to them (although I am aware that I will only get one perspective on that in a public forum)

I am not sure one can ever say categorically that they/other parents will continue to do so although again from my observations and experience I would say that is pretty likely ..that is my opinion, based on my observations and experience! I also agree that if some parents do continue to deny their accountability, that will lead to estrangement. That is my opinion based on my experience and observations.

Therefore I am partially agreeing with you, except on the categorical assumption that parents will continue to deny their accountability (as opposed to my view that it is "likely")

At what point does that perfectly friendly and reasonable disagreeing become "invalidation" of your views by me or my views by you?

Look .. lol ..

I cannot begin to tell you how many stories I told myself that turned out to be wrong- Why? Because my story is constantly unfolding, fleshing out and then reduced to next to nothing as I continue to learn and unlearn about what I thought I previously knew and now know-

In other words, how I look at it (life) isn't static-

But .. ?

Some things do continue to hold true in principal:

Children do not ask to be born-

Scientifically, parents are incorrect when they claim they did nothing- A parent cannot interact with their child without outcome- It's impossible-

It probably takes more energy (and wine) to "maintain" I/ we did "nothing" and "fault finding" than it does to move towards exploring responsibility, accountability and interaction-

Madgran77

*Holy Hannah* I can see why you would find that statement upsetting/invalidating within your context.

I also noted what you said re the parent/child relationship being the exception to the rule in terms of diagnosis.

I accept that your Dr did diagnose your mother as a Narcissist. As far as I can see the problem now is arising because some posters do not, from their experiences and observations, accept that a Dr can do that. That is their opinion. It doesn't change the fact that your Dr did do that with you, nor does it change the fact of your experiences with your Dr to help you in your situation

What I am trying to say in a rather long winded way is that I don't think you have to feel your experience is invalidated because someone else doesn't think that experience is possible. Does that make sense?

Yes- Especially that last part-

Chewbacca

Forgive me if I've got the wrong end of the stick here but I think what Bridie is getting at is that, whilst the counselling/treatment that you received "worked" for you personally Starblaze; the query that I raised was "how can our EP be "accused" of being narcissists, when they personally have, in all probability, have not been seen by a clinical psychologist?" I know for a fact that my mother was not seen by anyone other than an ordinary family GP but, then I don't believe that she was a narcissist; she was simply not a good mother. Do you see what I'm getting at?

I suppose, the same way that EP diagnose their children or partners with NPD.

Best guess.

In holy Hannah’s case however, she personally has been diagnosed with C-ptsd stemming from narcissistic abuse. So it’s a pretty decent leap to make that guess even though it still isn’t definite. The fact remains that she suffered narcissistic abuse. That HAS been professionally diagnosed.

Madgran -- What I said was that the STATEMENT is an example of being invalidating. I didn't feel invalidated. From my perspective, truth cannot be 'invalidated'.

Sometimes a person can feel invalidated and it is justified and some can see disagreeing/seeing a different truth (based on evidence) that contradicts them as also being 'invalidating'.

In other words, not just "buying" someones 'Flat Earth Theory' is not invalidating them or their faulty belief. I have a different belief based on evidence. Since the evidence is not going to change and neither is the person who thinks the Earth is flat... I'm certainly not going to go, "Okay, since you are never going to see my world as 'round', I'll just go ahead and 'agree' with YOU that the world is 'flat'..." just to end the 'argument'. Nope. I'm not like that anymore.

It's gaslighting... "If you don't believe my 'Flat Earth Story' why should I believe YOUR 'Round Earth' view?" Answer --Because one is closer to correct then the other and is based on a lot more data then, "I say the Earth is flat therefore it IS."