Overcomplicated

...sorry posted too soon by accident
...others questioned whether that was possible (to diagnose secondhand) From their experiences they held the view that maybe it isnt possible. From the perspective of posters who are clear it is possible, based on their experiences, their opinion is that it is possible.

My point is, each can take from the discussion and learn, change a view or not as they see fit. On one level each is dismissing the others viewpoint based on their experience. So is each "invalidating" the others viewpoint or just disagreeing? I'm still pondering on this one!

FriendlyGhost

I am deeply sad and deeply sorry for what this discussion has become. In my experience there are those who need support to be estranged and those who want support to be estranged. Any person who has been abused needs to be estranged and deserves our utmost support every step along the way.

It is very hurtful to question a person who has received professional support about its validity. It undermines and dismisses hard work and determination to become whole again. To do so relentlessly, with no consideration for how that would make a person feel or when you are told how it feels;

A bully is a person who continues to engage in behaviour that they are aware hurts you, that wouldn't harm you or them to stop

Terms like "narcissist" may be bandied about but the term exists to fill a need. Any lay person may easily identify bullying, even the person doing it.

^I deeply regret starting this discussion here. I hope some good may be found from it. I bid you a good day. These discussions move too fast and are too painful to not point out bullying and domineering behaviour as it occurs.^

I've been trying to explain this for a long time, all I get is

"waaaaaaah we want to say/do this"

But I already explained my position and continuing to to say/do it is painful to me

"but waaaaaaah we want to say/do what we like"

Then you are hurting me on purpose, is that really OK with you?

"waaaaaaah, you are so mean"

But it literally wouldn't hurt you at all, in any way to stop saying/doing it.

"waaaaaaah you are the real bully here"

It's ridiculous.

And yet estranged parents who post here are ok to be hurt by sometimes veiled, sometimes outright "diagnoses" of narcissism?

Never think that pointing out others flaws forgives your own.

Also don't back stray dogs into corners if you don't want to risk being bitten.

Nobody has been backed anywhere.
It's a discussion from both perspectives.

Actually, this has been a particularly good one, I think.

It's still here, so that says something.

"Pointing out others flaws" is not the same as what Miss A described as either veiled or outright diagnoses of narcissism are they?

I agree Miss A this has been a good discussion from different perspectives. That is why I am pondering on invalidation as above, as it seems to me that it could potentially shut down really good discussions on the basis of how I described my interpretation above. That would be a shame and I would like to be wrong

In the light of Freindly Ghosts comments I am also pondering on when the discussion changed in order to turn out in the way it has , as she refers to....I'm not sure what turned when, if it did or if differing perceptions are the cause!

Also don't back stray dogs into corners if you don't want to risk being bitten.

That sounds rather threatening. Did you mean it to be?

I feel that the lines here are somewhat blurred. As MissA said @ 10.52, there have been veiled, sometimes outright "diagnoses" of narcissism? towards some posters, one in particular comes to mind, and that appears to be deemed acceptable in the form of "debate". But when posters on this thread (and interestingly, another thread currently running on this forum) query the validity and professional capacity for those diagnoses to be made, accusations of "invalidating experiences" and "deliberately causing pain" are made. So where is the line to be drawn for this? If "invalidation of experiences" is painful for some, surely they can recognise and appreciate that their unsupported diagnoses of others is equally painful?

Respect for other's feelings is a two way street and, as I posted some days ago, respect is earned, not demanded.

And as an aside, I don't think for one minute that you're anything like a stray dog Starblaze!

In my experience there is a third FriendlyGhost; those who need support because they've been estranged.

It does appear at times to be one rule for some, and another rule for others MissA.

It's interesting isn't it Madgran this concept of invalidation, how some see the questioning of their experiences for example as having their story invalidated but are more than happy to question, and go to other lengths to attempt to invalidate an experience that isn't the same as their own.

The discussions particularly on the estrangement threads tend to change IMO when there's the constant and often un necessary reference to narcissists. So many links, so many posts about what a narcissist looks like, how to identify a narcissist, how to deal with a narcissist etc.

I really don't see the need to keep going on and on about narcissism; it's almost narcissistic in itself to do so.

Where are these 'stray dogs' I've seen referred too again and what do stray dogs have to do with this discussion? I thought we were all adults on this forum so why the need to post about 'stray dogs biting back when backed into a corner'. Is it that some regard simply being disagreed with as being backed into a corner?

Excellent post Chewbacca respect as you say has to be earned and cannot be demanded.

These threads would be more informative and supportive and would probably attract more posters if everyone treated those who do post the way they wish to be treated themselves.

It appears as if FriendlyGhost who started this thread has been put off by the overall tone, and she had nothing but favourable comments with regard to her own situation.

What does that say?

FriendlyGhost - thank you for this thread and for your contributions, which I have found incredibly helpful and inspirational.

I am so pleased that you are reconciled with your DD and that you have reached a place of love and understanding. It looks to me, as an outsider peering in, that you have both grown as adults, as has your relationship, which is all the stronger for it.

Thank you for sharing your memories of what must have been a very painful time, as well as your perspective. You and your DD both abandoned your polarised positions and you had the courage to step forward, even though you must have still been hurt and angry and feared rejection. I admire you so much for that.

Please don't leave, as yours is such a positive voice and message, which I am sure has moved others, just as it has moved me.

I never really understood the phrase “respect is earned”. It was always my belief that you should treat everyone with respect, including strangers, unless they behave in a way that makes me lose respect for them. I’ve never expected anyone to “earn respect” before I treat them with respect. Can someone please explain that line of thinking? I’ve heard it so many times before.

I always treat everyone with courtesy which isn’t the same as respect which only comes of knowing someone and their deeds. People do get the two mixed up.

yes I see what you're saying MamaBear. For me the phrase 'respect is earned' comes into play when someone is complaining that they are not being respected while simultaneously showing no respect for others.

In that context, they are not being respected because by being disrespectful to others, they haven't earned respect themselves.

Now I've typed that, it looks a bit odd but it's the only way I can think of explaining it.

You put that much better than I did Pantglas

Thank you LaraGransnet

IMO

Questions when trying to give the right advice great

Questions when trying to understand someone and their situation wonderful

Questions that help give the right support fantastic

Questions about the validity of the professional advice someone has been given that has not only been proven 100% accurate to them by their own experience but the prescribed treatment has shown to have a huge positive impact on their lives OK, maybe but don't push it

Repeatedly disagreeing against the advice of a professional and questioning it's validity despite being given situational evidence to the contrary Stop. Just stop. That's not ok

Telling someone they are imagining it and shouldn't be hurt by an interrogation on the subject and that your opinion is equally as valid as the professionals knowing very little about them and never having met their abuser ridiculous

It causes untold issues here when this could be such a wonderful supportive environment.

Smileless @ 14.06, I think that's a good definition.

I understand that it's not social media etiquette to cross reference from one subject thread to another, which is a pity because there are so many examples that could be provided that you've done that exact same thing yourself Starblaze.

We all know how difficult, and emotionally draining it is, to have a raw and painful experience that has affected our lives irreparably, be dissected and pulled apart for ever deeper examination by others who seem determined not to understand and appreciate why it causes more pain. I've seen a lot of it, cross experiences, on the estrangement threads. Perhaps now would be a good time acknowledge that the pain we personally bear, is exactly the same pain that someone else is feeling?

Madgran77

...sorry posted too soon by accident
...others questioned whether that was possible (to diagnose secondhand) From their experiences they held the view that maybe it isnt possible. From the perspective of posters who are clear it is possible, based on their experiences, their opinion is that it is possible.

My point is, each can take from the discussion and learn, change a view or not as they see fit. On one level each is dismissing the others viewpoint based on their experience. So is each "invalidating" the others viewpoint or just disagreeing? I'm still pondering on this one!

There's a difference between sharing an opinion and presenting a fact-

Sometimes neither is accepted-

Look at what's actually happening around the globe regarding the pandemic- People are dying from it and being hospitalized- And yet, there are the deniers-

Just like there was in the time of Galileo Galilei-

Parents will continue to not hold themselves accountable- That is a fact- My opinion is that as a result of that more parents will be estranged-

If I've done that, show me. I will apologise. I will appreciate the opportunity to continue growing as a person.

As I said Starblaze, it's not etiquette to cross reference from thread to thread. But if and when I see it happen again, I'll point it out to you. Hopefully, it won't.

MamaBear20

I never really understood the phrase “respect is earned”. It was always my belief that you should treat everyone with respect, including strangers, unless they behave in a way that makes me lose respect for them. I’ve never expected anyone to “earn respect” before I treat them with respect. Can someone please explain that line of thinking? I’ve heard it so many times before.

I agree because I respect everyone until they give me a reason not to, well usually it has to be consistent and many reasons as I do understand that people are reactive or just having a rubbish day.

Also I respected my children, their needs and their individuality before they were old enough to nearly understand that concept.

That's my preferred way of doing things anyway

Thanks Chewbacca and you're spot on with your post @ 14.28.

Parents will continue to not hold themselves accountable as will AC no doubt, and having read over the years just on GN, some the accounts given by EP's of their AC's behaviour, if the number of parents being estranged does increase, it wont just be because of them, it will be because of their AC too.

There's a difference between sharing an opinion and presenting a fact

Well yes! I agree and I don't believe I suggested otherwise.

Taking your example from my perspective:

"Some parents deny their accountability".

Based on observations and experience over many years I agree that is a fact because I have specifically seen it. I also believe posters on here who have said that happened to them (although I am aware that I will only get one perspective on that in a public forum)

I am not sure one can ever say categorically that they/other parents will continue to do so although again from my observations and experience I would say that is pretty likely ..that is my opinion, based on my observations and experience! I also agree that if some parents do continue to deny their accountability, that will lead to estrangement. That is my opinion based on my experience and observations.

Therefore I am partially agreeing with you, except on the categorical assumption that parents will continue to deny their accountability (as opposed to my view that it is "likely")

At what point does that perfectly friendly and reasonable disagreeing become "invalidation" of your views by me or my views by you?