Overcomplicated

Starblaze -- My view is, yes, everyone and their feelings matter but... There's sometimes a wrong time/place to voice those opinions/feelings.

For example -- The BLM movement. When discussing that topic with minority groups the last thing they want to hear is, "Well, white people get killed by the police too!"

That's true but it distracts from the point that people of color are at much greater risk and gives the feeling of, "Don't forget I matter too!" Yes. Everyone knows that but for a moment can we talk about Black Lives?

Sometimes, especially when talking to marginalized groups, like child abuse victims, it's better to just say, "That's terrible. I'm sorry that happened to you." PERIOD.

There's no need to add on, "But I'm hurting too!!!!" every time someone explains the damage abusive parents do. As we have talked about, adult/adult abuse is bad but hopefully mature adults have the tools to deal with a bully/abuser. Children don't have any coping mechanisms or 'power' to deal with an adult 'parent' who bullies them.

It's apples and oranges.

I agree that there's no need to add on "But I'm hurting too" but have never seen anyone responded too in that way here on GN.

Not sure I'm comfortable with comparisons to the BLM to be honest.

It might be better if we kept the discussion to estrangement as that as we all know is both a complex and emotive issue.

Quite so Smileless, it's a complicated and emotive enough subject as it is without bringing racism into it.

Smileless2012

rosecarmel you posted that scientifically parents are incorrect when they say did nothing. This thread is on the estrangement forum and there is nothing scientifically proven that parents who say they did nothing with regard to their estrangement are incorrect, therefore what you posted is an opinion.

Nothing is never an option, Smileless- It's not possible- People interact: Parents with their children, children with their parents- Their interaction with one another is cause and effect-

Some parents go to great lengths in an attempt to escape the pain of estrangement instead of staying put and figuring out what they did to contribute to the outcome-

It can never be nothing-

So, that is true for those who eastrange then?
It can never be that they have done nothing?

"Some parents go to great lengths in at attempt to escape the pain of estrangement" what are you saying rosecarmel that P's who find themselves estranged didn't do anything to try and prevent it?

Silly me, of course that's what you're saying because no parent can ever be estranged because it's their AC whose at fault can they.

Well logic would dictate that you're correct MissA but unfortunately logic doesn't seem to figure very much when it comes to discussing estrangement does it.

Meant to add and some AC and/or their partners go to great lengths to ensure that estrangement takes place.

A point I've been trying to clarify for a long time MissA! I know, from my own situation, that I could possibly have done more to repair the relationship with my mother. But I just didn't want to. My life was, and is, easier without her in it. So that brings us right back round to the beginning of the discussion: if my mother had behaved differently, would we have estranged or, if I had behaved differently would we still have a relationship? Blame is very difficult to apportion because, as has been said repeatedly, we only get to hear one side of it. The only thing that binds them is the hurt and pain that ensues. And that's the same for everyone.

rosecarmel nothing only happens in a void doesn't it and even then there is probably something going on.

I think that a large part of moving on has been reconsiling my own behaviour with myself. I can't reconsile it with my mum, if I could we wouldn't be estranged. Any apology I gave was not good enough and I have no memory of her ever taking responsibility or apologising to me. I definitely can learn from it for myself so that I can have healthier relationships with other people I care about. Ultimately I am responsible for my behaviour as an adult no matter what else was a factor in it.

Again child me came into this world 100% innocent but at some point I became responsible for myself. I'm not exactly sure when that happens though and I'm not sure if the damage done to my growing brain moved the point that happens.

I grew up though, I became more healthy yet the dynamic between me and her continued to worsen. She did not want me to become a person who was changed or forgivable or she could not find excuses to abuse me.

Holyhannah yes, thank you, I see what you mean.

Holyhannah if something is happening to someone right in front of you, it is time to address that, not play "forget you! what about me?".

Ultimately I am responsible for my behaviour as an adult no matter what else was a factor in it.

I so agree with this! Ultimate self responsibility for the way we are; not blaming anyone or anything else for being "us". And I found that my estrangement actually enabled me to do things that, until then, I wouldn't/couldn't ever have envisaged before. It was liberation!

"Nothing" is a conclusion people come to-

rosecarmel -- Exactly. I think/proclaim I did 'nothing', therefore I didn't do anything to deserve estrangement...

Just because someone comes to that conclusion doesn't mean the people around them have to agree or believe them.

Just because someone comes to that conclusion doesn't mean the people around them have to agree or believe them.

Absolutely true for everyone, in every occassion.

It's a bit of a pointless thread if nobody believes anything anyone posts.

I think belief, like denial, provides comfort, a soft place to fall- What it doesn't provide all on its own is all the answers- Answers take work- "Don't know" is a perfectly acceptable response to circumstances that have yet to be understood-

Everyone needs a soft place, once in a while.

MissAdventure

Everyone needs a soft place, once in a while.

True ?

Message deleted by Gransnet. Here's a link to our Talk Guidelines.

Message deleted by Gransnet. Here's a link to our Talk Guidelines.

I can't see that.
Then again, I often can't see lots that has been apparently said.

People come here looking for advice and support and want to discuss their experience and feelings and of course we do that... We can still validate those feelings and that experience while helping them reframe it if needed or reminding them that there is room for everyone's feelings or saying that our experience shows xyz is a possible outcome from that future decision.

Sounds good to me!! If only....!