Overcomplicated

Exactly. I think/proclaim I did 'nothing', therefore I didn't do anything to deserve estrangement...

Just because someone comes to that conclusion doesn't mean the people around them have to agree or believe them

Presumably noone has to agree with or believe anyone ...so again, that presumably is invalidating, stops useful discussion by creating arguments and upset and so the circle goes on!!

Summerlove I can't imagine if I said, I want to overlook these flaws in myself and you would say "OK, let's overlook each others flaws and tell each other and everyone else they don't exist!".

Also I don't think personally that flipping anything on the other person is ever useful. For example it's often:

"You do it too!"

Yes but that was in the past and this is happening now. I can learn from past behaviour... Can you?

Also people can validate my feelings and STILL say, I don't like your behaviour/the way you are expressing your feelings. I have a lot of respect for that and the validation for me, helps me calm down and think logically before I deal with the next bit

Also I don't think personally that flipping anything on the other person is ever useful.

I think that that's often a coping mechanism, used when something has been pointed out that is perhaps too uncomfortable to deal with or acknowledge and so it's "flipped back" for the other person to ruminate on. I've seen it happen a lot in work situations where there's been an error or mistake and no one wants to accept responsibility for it. So they deflect it on to someone else to deal with.

Yes but that was in the past and this is happening now

Recent past or ancient past?

Chewbacca

^Also I don't think personally that flipping anything on the other person is ever useful.^

I think that that's often a coping mechanism, used when something has been pointed out that is perhaps too uncomfortable to deal with or acknowledge and so it's "flipped back" for the other person to ruminate on. I've seen it happen a lot in work situations where there's been an error or mistake and no one wants to accept responsibility for it. So they deflect it on to someone else to deal with.

It can absolutely be used as a coping mechanism, but more often than not it’s used to stop and document in its tracks.

Starblaze

Summerlove I can't imagine if I said, I want to overlook these flaws in myself and you would say "OK, let's overlook each others flaws and tell each other and everyone else they don't exist!".

Also I don't think personally that flipping anything on the other person is ever useful. For example it's often:

"You do it too!"

Yes but that was in the past and this is happening now. I can learn from past behaviour... Can you?

Also people can validate my feelings and STILL say, I don't like your behaviour/the way you are expressing your feelings. I have a lot of respect for that and the validation for me, helps me calm down and think logically before I deal with the next bit

No, I’m not very good at pretending flaws don’t exist. It’s a flaw Of mine.

but more often than not it’s used to stop and document in its tracks.

I 100% agree with that!

That made me spit my tea Summerlove

Chewbacca

^but more often than not it’s used to stop and document in its tracks.^

I 100% agree with that!

Oh man
Auto”correct” strikes again

Stop an argument ??‍♀️

No, I meant the former, not the latter!

Does make me think of my mum

Me: "mum, you keep doing xyz and its really hurting my feelings. If you don't stop doing this I don't think I can be around you"

Mum: "You want to talk about me hurting your feelings? You did xyz when you were 8"

lol maybe that's a demonstration of how careful I was as an adult to be kind to her.

Also

Mum: "This list of people agree with me that you are a horrible person"

Me: "Oh no, that's awful, I'm going to feel so awkward around them now, why did they say that?"

Mum: "Oh they just agree with me that you are a horrible person, because I told them all the mean things you do to me"

Me: "like what?"

Mum: "If you don't know I'm not going to tell you"

Me: "OK mum"

Perhaps your mother wasn't able to articulate her feelings and emotions very well and express herself to you as to why she felt hurt by past actions?
It's only fairly recent generations that have become more able to look within themselves and scrutinise why they feel as they do and address it.

Chewbacca

Perhaps your mother wasn't able to articulate her feelings and emotions very well and express herself to you as to why she felt hurt by past actions?
It's only fairly recent generations that have become more able to look within themselves and scrutinise why they feel as they do and address it.

I agree with that in principle. Introspection is a luxury we now have time for.

However, in the above example she was able to document all the past hurts to others, but refused to do so with her daughter. That sounds more manipulative than unable to express thoughts

Well I suppose when all else fails some posters just have to resort to accusing others of saying things they haven't said.

Summerlove my responding by saying 'EC do the same thing' is not saying I'm hurting too. How can you see something that has never been said? Well at least that explains why you can't see that MissA.

"Does make me think of my mum" I get that. Some of the posts here make me think of our ES's wife and when that happens I realise how fortunate we are that she is no longer a part of our lives.

Yes Summerlove my mum was queen of invalidating feelings, manipulation and creating fake reality. As I previously said, no matter how hard I tried as a child "sorry" was never good enough. She remembered every detail of child me being normal childhood naughty and it was a personal attack on her me just being a normal, developing child pushing boundaries.

I did later find out some of the things she told family members... Some true, some untrue, some things she did to me and some things she said about them she told them I said. It wasn't worth trying to save relationships I didn't have due to her making sure her victim had no support system. Also, trying to tell them the truth would have not only hurt them but taken away mum's support system. I couldn't bring myself to do that.

Yay scapegoat problems

Starblaze -- Good grief. Isn't that just how it is...

People cannot understand unless they were raised by one of these types. Trying to have an adult conversation with them is just impossible. They refuse to hear anything you have to say and if they do listen? Then like you say, on to the snotty retorts...

The comparing of something you did as a child as to something they choose to do as an adult is just a ridiculous argument. It's also silly in the sense of, if we do something as a child there is someone there to enact a consequence... Parents/adults are accountable to themselves and if they are immature bullies then who can stop them?

When we become adults and their rude/immature/bully behavior continues, all we can do is point out when they are doing 'it' but if they don't want to stop/modify their behavior? All you can do is walk away.

They'll deny anything that makes them look bad and project everything back. Even if they have told the truth (usually accidentally) and you remind them of their words and actions? IT. NEVER. HAPPENED. and if you don't believe them? Then they accuse you of some other crime...

My 'mom' would lie and change stories and events to look the 'hero'. The reality is, she is a negative/toxic bully who never takes accountability for her behavior. And apologize to a 'lesser' even when they are correct? NEVER.

So if someone proves they lie, deny and admit that they refuse to apologize/refuse to apologize to me, I end contact.

They'll deny anything that makes them look bad and project everything back. Even if they have told the truth (usually accidentally) and you remind them of their words and actions? IT. NEVER. HAPPENED. and if you don't believe them? Then they accuse you of some other crime...
Oh, how true this is.

Chewbacca

Perhaps your mother wasn't able to articulate her feelings and emotions very well and express herself to you as to why she felt hurt by past actions?
It's only fairly recent generations that have become more able to look within themselves and scrutinise why they feel as they do and address it.

My mother most definitely looked within, I'm certain of it- Even as a child- She did make every attempt to articulate her thoughts and feelings intertwined with her telling of stories of the past- But she'd suddenly shut down the conversation, perhaps at the point that she was unable to bring herself to talk further- So we'd collectively attempt to stitch together what we all thought but always get it wrong- It was frustrating for all of us-

When she was dying she waited for me to arrive- One more time she tried to articulate but I reassured her it was ok-

HolyHannah

Starblaze -- Good grief. Isn't that just how it is...

People cannot understand unless they were raised by one of these types. Trying to have an adult conversation with them is just impossible. They refuse to hear anything you have to say and if they do listen? Then like you say, on to the snotty retorts...

The comparing of something you did as a child as to something they choose to do as an adult is just a ridiculous argument. It's also silly in the sense of, if we do something as a child there is someone there to enact a consequence... Parents/adults are accountable to themselves and if they are immature bullies then who can stop them?

When we become adults and their rude/immature/bully behavior continues, all we can do is point out when they are doing 'it' but if they don't want to stop/modify their behavior? All you can do is walk away.

They'll deny anything that makes them look bad and project everything back. Even if they have told the truth (usually accidentally) and you remind them of their words and actions? IT. NEVER. HAPPENED. and if you don't believe them? Then they accuse you of some other crime...

My 'mom' would lie and change stories and events to look the 'hero'. The reality is, she is a negative/toxic bully who never takes accountability for her behavior. And apologize to a 'lesser' even when they are correct? NEVER.

So if someone proves they lie, deny and admit that they refuse to apologize/refuse to apologize to me, I end contact.

I'm laughing .. ?

The word snotty always catches me off guard- Heard it a lot .. LMAO ..

rosecarmel -- I cannot think of a more accurate word then 'snotty'. It's that nauseating haughty/superior/condescending tone that isn't cute in a pre-teen and certainly is gross coming from an adult. And when I would try to explain/point out when she was doing it? She'd actually get worse and say things like, "Is this what you mean?" and be worse and when I'd walk away like, "Whatever." she'd complain that I never was willing to "hear her out".

Any connection between her behavior and my reaction? Nope. Any reflection on what I said prior to walking away? Nope. Is she in any way responsible for being estranged?....

HolyHannah

rosecarmel -- I cannot think of a more accurate word then 'snotty'. It's that nauseating haughty/superior/condescending tone that isn't cute in a pre-teen and certainly is gross coming from an adult. And when I would try to explain/point out when she was doing it? She'd actually get worse and say things like, "Is this what you mean?" and be worse and when I'd walk away like, "Whatever." she'd complain that I never was willing to "hear her out".

Any connection between her behavior and my reaction? Nope. Any reflection on what I said prior to walking away? Nope. Is she in any way responsible for being estranged?....

We heard the word often growing up- When we talked back- It was a loud household-

HolyHannah

rosecarmel -- I cannot think of a more accurate word then 'snotty'. It's that nauseating haughty/superior/condescending tone that isn't cute in a pre-teen and certainly is gross coming from an adult. And when I would try to explain/point out when she was doing it? She'd actually get worse and say things like, "Is this what you mean?" and be worse and when I'd walk away like, "Whatever." she'd complain that I never was willing to "hear her out".

Any connection between her behavior and my reaction? Nope. Any reflection on what I said prior to walking away? Nope. Is she in any way responsible for being estranged?....

What about "jeering"?

rosecarmel -- I think jeering, by my personal understanding of the word, is more how she talked to other adults if she thought she could get away with it. She actually kept insulting Me quite quiet because they were usually inaccurate put-downs and other adults might notice her insults to Me were just plain lies... Those lies usually started with, "You always..." or "You are so..."

By the time I went NC my 'mom' was out of anything resembling a friend. She wasn't a good enough Narc (hence I give her a C-grade) to keep even the most gullible adult as a friend. When you can't fool the Scapegoat anymore, your mask slipped too far... And a Goat, once trained, cannot be returned to the herd... I can't reenter 'the herd' because I refuse to 'drink' from their "poisoned pond" anymore and I also can smell when someone else's "pond" is dirty and refuse to drink/believe them when they say their water is 'clean'.

HolyHannah

rosecarmel -- I think jeering, by my personal understanding of the word, is more how she talked to other adults if she thought she could get away with it. She actually kept insulting Me quite quiet because they were usually inaccurate put-downs and other adults might notice her insults to Me were just plain lies... Those lies usually started with, "You always..." or "You are so..."

By the time I went NC my 'mom' was out of anything resembling a friend. She wasn't a good enough Narc (hence I give her a C-grade) to keep even the most gullible adult as a friend. When you can't fool the Scapegoat anymore, your mask slipped too far... And a Goat, once trained, cannot be returned to the herd... I can't reenter 'the herd' because I refuse to 'drink' from their "poisoned pond" anymore and I also can smell when someone else's "pond" is dirty and refuse to drink/believe them when they say their water is 'clean'.

Have you ever drank and were like, damn, that was a mistake? Hahaha!

Sometimes the line between empathy and trust escapes me- I believe every person is the real deal, but can't say with certainty that I can "always" determine what their deal is- Which can make it difficult to meet people where they are at at times, but it's not a requirement for me to engage in conversation with them, to listen and come away having learned something-

The BLM demonstrations are a perfect example of the above- You don't have to know every reason of every attendee for being there- All you have to do is show up, as equals-

Summerlove

Starblaze

Summerlove I can't imagine if I said, I want to overlook these flaws in myself and you would say "OK, let's overlook each others flaws and tell each other and everyone else they don't exist!".

Also I don't think personally that flipping anything on the other person is ever useful. For example it's often:

"You do it too!"

Yes but that was in the past and this is happening now. I can learn from past behaviour... Can you?

Also people can validate my feelings and STILL say, I don't like your behaviour/the way you are expressing your feelings. I have a lot of respect for that and the validation for me, helps me calm down and think logically before I deal with the next bit

No, I’m not very good at pretending flaws don’t exist. It’s a flaw Of mine.

?