Overcomplicated

Thank you for sharing your experience Friendlyghost It’s very rare on these boards to read a story of true self reflection, repentance, and reconciliation. It’s very heartwarming to hear your story, and I’m so happy for you that it’s worked out so well, although it must have been very difficult for you to come to the realization that your behavior pushed your daughter away.

I don’t think my own situation will ever resolve that way. My husband is estranged from his mother, and she has blamed me for it (the evil DIL, the 3rd party that came into the family and ruined everything). Although my husband has explained to his parents many times over the years how their controlling behavior (and subsequent tantrums when they didn’t get their way) drove us away, they continue to claim they “are baffled” and deny doing anything wrong. When my husband has tried to explain their behavior that was hurting us, they accused him of being abusive toward them. There is no self reflection on their part and sadly I don’t believe there ever will be. All we have ever asked is for the control and tantrum behaviors to stop and to stop disrespecting me and we can resume a relationship. They said no.

FriendlyGhost, thank you so much for sharing your experience here. The fact that you have highlighted that you sought help and did the work required to realise what your issues were are so positive.
I think everyone could benefit from having tools to enable genuine self reflection, I know I certainly would have appreciated having a way to healthily work through my feelings when I was estranging from my late MIL.
I acknowledge I didn’t always behave graciously, and retaliated through hurt feelings instead of communicating effectively, and counselling helped me to realise that.
Unfortunately, both parties need to be willing to create a healthy dialogue, which sadly is a rarity.
Again, thank you so much for sharing with us and I hope you and your DD have many happy years ahead of you.

I think you're right Madgran there's a big difference between giving an opinion and forcing your opinion onto someone else, to get them to go in a particular direction.

I do think we need to be careful about making statements like most parents of my generation would not agree my behaviour was wrong in any way. They would not agree it was bullying, let alone abusive as it gives the impression that most parents of a particular generation abused their children because they didn't regard what they were doing as abusive.

I agree with the statement that "it takes two to make a relationship work but it only takes one side not willing to see their part to collapse the whole thing".

That was certainly the case for us.

I'm glad FriendlyGhost that you now have a better understanding of yourself and your D, and that no one tells either of you what to do.

You're both adults and no one, be they someone's parent, partner or AC should be telling another adult what to do.

Friendlyghost this resonates with me:
“All the problems and arguments it caused, I blamed on her because she had changed not me.
I now understand I simply forgot to let my child grow up and become an autonomous adult with her own life to lead that I wasn't always a part of. I tried to bully her into keeping it that way and doing what I thought was best for her, inserting myself into her future dreams. “

So many times my MIL accused my husband of changing. Of course he changed! He became a husband, and then a father, and his priorities changed and he grew and he changed. Which is as it should be. MIL didn’t like her son growing and changing because she could no longer control him.

Smileless “I do think we need to be careful about making statements like most parents of my generation would not agree my behaviour was wrong in any way. They would not agree it was bullying, let alone abusive as it gives the impression that most parents of a particular generation abused their children because they didn't regard what they were doing as abusive.“

I believe Friendlyghost clarified her statement and said that in her experience the majority of people of her generation who she has told her story with have responded this way.

Madgran -- You would have to point those posts etc. out for me. I can't think of any, let alone "quite a few" parents taking responsibility.

Sorry no recollection of user names and as over several years that I have been on GN, I doubt my brain will dredge them up to my memory.

Added to which I tend generally to focus on what is being posted rather than individual posters/names so even less likely to dredge the names up. If I do I will let you know.

I don't recall a parent actually posting on an estrangement thread after they have taken responsibility, seen themselves totally at fault, rectified it, healed themselves and now having an obviously blissful relationship with their EAC ...I agree with you there, Friendly Ghost is such an amazing exception. Well done you Friendly Ghost for bothering to come on here to try and help others.

However I have definitely seen estranged parents who are worried, upset, trying to work out what to do ie in a process (something we all have to go through when learning, growing and making decisions) saying that they know they have made mistakes, done the wrong thing, spoken out of turn, had the wrong expectations etc and now don't know how to rectify things. I have definitely seen that

Gransnet has a good few threads where parents are being told in no uncertain terms to mind their own business, keep their own counsel, that they are no longer "number 1" in their child's life.
There is one just yesterday, politely reminding someone that their child's spending is their own affair.

So... I refute the idea that almost every parent thinks they can direct anyone's life.

*Gransnet has a good few threads where parents are being told in no uncertain terms to mind their own business, keep their own counsel, that they are no longer "number 1" in their child's life.
There is one just yesterday, politely reminding someone that their child's spending is their own affair.*

Yes MissA I agree, certainly some people do need help to be reminded, even when "interference" is well meant but very misguided. And in the example you give, I believe virtually every poster gave exactly that message, highlighting that the general view was towards letting go, minding their own business etc. With the very sensible qualifier regarding if there were any concerns about neglect, abuse etc of the Grandchild;

Entirely understandable as I am sure no one would want or expect a GP to ignore genuine concerns about the safety of a young child, in the name of "letting their AC go to live their own lives"

Actually MissA youve just reminded me that, apart from the thread that you mention thats currently being discussed, theres another, similar thread, regarding a mother who is worried that her daughter's house is "very messy and untidy and what should she do". The vast majority of replies were "Do nothing. Mind your own business, its nothing to do with you". I wonder if, on another chat forum somewhere there's a post from a young woman saying "I'm struggling to cope with a job, a child and the home and my mother never offers to help".

Madgran -- But therein lies a big problem.

What the grand-parent calls "genuine concern" for the well-being of a grand-child can also be a furthering of abuse/extension of it toward the parent. How does one tell the difference?

If a child is in danger.

I stand by my statement that we need to be careful about certain statements we make because of the possible implications MamaBear.

I was not suggesting that's what FriendlyGhost intended when she made her post.

As I posted earlier, I have never seen an EAC accept full responsibility for estranging their parents and as you've said Madgran FriendlyGhost is the first EP to have done so.

That's right MissA, I've seen P's jumped on from a great height for not minding their own business and for the smallest of slights which is why it's so refreshing to see the supportive comments FriendlyGhost is receiving.

MissAdventure -- According to my parents and in-laws, my children are in danger. Now what?

We are damned if if we do anything and damned if we don't, not a chance in hell of doing or saying the right thing.
Now all communications and gestures have to be over thought, dissected, planned before we say or do anything with our children and grandchildren,it no longer feels like a family, just people I know in passing.
Heartbreaking.

I suppose it would depend on your particular laws surrounding child safety, hannah.

I have seen people here being told that mouldy cups aren't an issue, sleeping in the same bed with mummy's new 'partner' isn't, but for me, they would be.

The point being, that it can hardly be said that grandparents here automatically band together against adult children.

Bridie22 -- Unfortunately that is the attitude with which my 'mom' interacted with me. I really see that as an excuse to not even try to find a better way.

So it became, the mentality of, "Well... Hannah's not going to like what I say or do regardless..." so she'd just go on the attack because it doesn't matter in her mind.

It does matter from my perspective. Perhaps if her approach wasn't from her anger based mentality and her belief that I am "just like her", she wouldn't approach me with hostility. The hostility and lack of basic respect/abuse is what I fled from.

My daughter has taken responsibility for estranging me and apologises to me deeply at times. As I tell her, that is a paradox. She didn't feel responsible for the pain and heartbreak estrangement caused me until I became responsible for the pain I caused her. It's a wonderful circle of forgiveness.

Thank you to everyone who has shared your thoughts and stories to me. I truly wish you all the best possible outcome that suits the situation

It sounds as though you've done the best thing in keeping your distance from your parents HolyHannah; the trust, communication and relationship appears, from what you've told us, to have irretrievably broken down. With no will, on either side, to repair it and move forward, it sounds like you're both better off with independent lives.

MissAdventure -- We self reported to our local child protection agency when we had our first. We informed them that would likely be getting a report about Us at some point. We got to know the agency well. I cannot imagine the shock whoever (outside of Us) got when they called to report Us. CPS informed them a file was already open and to basically, "Have a nice day."

What the grand-parent calls "genuine concern" for the well-being of a grand-child can also be a furthering of abuse/extension of it toward the parent

Having had to deal with a very significant number of child abuse and/or neglect cases, identifying key indicators, over many years, Holy Hannah I can assure you that there are clear signs that are obvious. For a GP, well yes, in some cases that might be extension and they might think it was "genuine concern" but my point was that I would assume no one would expect a GP to ignore clear signs of neglect/abuse in the name of "letting AC live their own lives" ...and then it is for others to make the judgement isn't it!! Not judgements about the GPs motivations, just about the child!!

MissAdventure, surely it’s all about context though?
I mean I have had the pleasure of finding the odd mouldy cup or spoon in my teenagers rooms, which was highly unpleasant, but I wouldn’t say that indicates my children are unsafe. More that I’m lessening the amount of supervision and guidance in their personal space and trying to educate that if they don’t clean up their rubbish this is the outcome. Shockingly, they started clearing away dishes.
Similarly, a small child climbing into bed with a parental figure for comfort wouldn’t be an issue to me at all. In order for anyone to be in contact with the child then a level of judgement has already been levied.
When I see people refer to the safety of a child I would generally assume they are referring to having a roof over their head, meals on the table, clean clothes and a supportive and physically safe environment.
The things you have mentioned as examples are, to me, personal choices about standards of living, which are parental decisions.
I understand that you were illustrating the diversity of opinion within parents of adults. And opinions are fine, it’s what is then verbalised and enacted that, to me can cause a huge amount of unnecessary drama in a relationship, which as we’ve seen on many threads here can get out of hand very easily.

According to my parents and in-laws, my children are in danger. Now what?

If that is the case, they should report their reasons for that it and it is for others to decide that your children are or are not in danger. Presumably, others would quickly see that that was not the case!

We self reported to our local child protection agency when we had our first. We informed them that would likely be getting a report about Us at some point. We got to know the agency well. I cannot imagine the shock whoever (outside of Us) got when they called to report Us. CPS informed them a file was already open and to basically, "Have a nice day."

Good strategy!

That does not, and I am sure you are not, suggest that other GPs who see signs of abuse/neglect should not report.

Message deleted by Gransnet. Here's a link to our Talk Guidelines.

Bridie22, that’s a bit harsh. The whole purpose of these threads it to be able to discuss, share experiences and ultimately support and educate one another.
I don’t think there’s a need to be so obviously nasty to anyone - even if you disagree with their point.