Your money or your grandsons

I don't have the answer to that question MrsWarren but I know what you mean for example I'd suggest ignoring the strong anti EAC rhetoric across many threads at the moment and not let it influence you away from all thoughts and advice.

TBH the worse thing for any poster, especially a new one it to have their account questioned to the extent that it comes across as if they're not being believed.

All too often they leave but thankfully JGran is still here.

OP

Do you also have a 401k?
That is a safer bet for retirement in the US vs real estate property as the latter is not liquid right away and its value changes a lot.

You describe having a lot of properties (awesome!) AND taxes and maintenance cost a lot of money.
Are these properties paid off? If still have mortgage on them, it would not work very well if you need that money for your retirement.
CA is notorious for how expensive real estate is.
You dont have to answer my questions. It is just food for thought.

Honestly, you are giving mixed messages.
You are cutting off your son off your will but allow them to live in one of your properties.
Enmeshment continues and it has to stop

I live in the US too and I don't buy your properties are your retirement plan. Not the way the US works.

If your son is this bad with money, you are enabling him.
He needs to sink or swim and he will only do it when he has to face adult life without mommy's subsidized allowance.

Nobody needs a condo to start in adult life.
Could your gc affort taxes and maintenance on the property?
Please do not make the same mistakes you are making with your son with the next generation.

It is very nice you dont want them to suffer the way you did but you do not need to overcompensate for your difficulties in your life.

Yes I agree MrsW and yet later we will be blamed for destroying this thread as we are on others.

We are all individuals here.

I'd also like to give a bit more detail on the time specific to his quitting. So, in March 2018 I was diagnosed with Stage 3, Grade 3, -3X breast cancer. Scary stuff!!!

I found an amazing oncologist and learned as much as I could to understand what I had so that I could make educated decisions about my situation. My son also did some research, but most of what he found was very dire. I found a mix. He went with me to many of my Dr. appts and we found that it wasn't as dire as he had originally thought, but it was going to be a tough fight.

Part of my thoughts is that he still hasn't let go of his dire research.

Chemo was hard....vey hard. I lost more than 100 lbs (ok, I needed to lose it anyway) Losing 20lbs a week though was really tough on my body and I ended up in ER several times due to nausea and lose stools that were uncontrollable. The end of my chemo cut short my treatment as my Oncologist felt that it was taking too much out of me and the negative side affects caused partial sight loss (temporary according to the ophthalmologist) and some nerve damage (minor stuff).

It was during this time that my son quit while we were right in the last weeks of a major house renovation on an investment property. He also stopped helping me with my chickens. I was barely able to walk from my bed to the bath, much less take care of the chickens. Even feeding my dogs was a struggle, but I hired help. He liked the chickens as did my youngest grandson, but he felt like I wasn't trying to take care of things. I really was. I ended up having to get a transfusion three times because of my anemia. YES! Another JW no no. Thankfully, I have an amazing gardener that really pitched in with the dogs and my garden in exchange for some tomatoes, onions and ginger. He always filled their outdoor water for me.

December I had my mastectomy and he was sitting at the end of my bed in the hospital when I woke up. He asked how I was feeling and then left. He fed the dogs for two days while I was in the hospital.

When I got out of the hospital two of my friends alternated coming by to see if I needed anything. Its been a slow recovery in my opinion, but I've never been physically challenged so it is hard not to be as able as before but I'm working on it. I can now walk a full mile (with rests) and my memory is coming back just recently. I'm excited about that.

My memory was really irritating to my son for some reason. I don't know why other than the fact that he leaned on me to remind him of things sometimes. His grandfather died with Alzheimer's and his father has been diagnosed and showed signs of it at the same age my son is now. So, maybe my memory struggles were too much emotionally? IDK...

Sounds like your son stopped being able to take care of you?
Not everybody is cut out to be a care giver, it is so hard to see a loved one suffer and caregiver burn out syndrome is very real

Maybe your expectations were also unrealistic?
You were receiving treatment for cancer, a renovation, dogs, chickens, etc, - all at the same time.
Could it have been too much according to the circumtances?

You also say you reminded your son for him to do things.
That's another example of enabling and enmeshment.
It is your son who has to remind himself of what he has to do, he is an adult and he is responsible for his own actions.

I am not saying your son is not reasonable in his demand

That demand is only the tip of the iceberg.

I agree about the mixed message Hithere, but remember that when this change took place I was barely able to keep a sip of water down and make it to kitchen sink. I had to focus on a renovation that was near completion and get that property on the market as that is my retirement income. I buy the uglies and make em pretties. It is way better than a 401k that can lose 80% of it's value in a single day. A flip done well can make me 40-100k in just a few months. I wish my parents had left me anything but they died with very little a long time ago. Both my mother and my step father died at 53....I'm 56 now. Both to cancer. As did my grandmother at 53...of cancer.

It must have been a dreadfully frightening time for you and your son Jgran. I can understand how you struggling with your memory would have enforced his fear of Alzheimer's especially as his GF died with it and his father has been diagnosed, having shown signs at the age your son is now.

I can understand how all of this may have been too much for your son to deal with, too much to handle so he had to 'get away'.

Where as this can be explained, his estrangement of you and now his threat that you'll never see your GC again unless you give him what he wants is unfathomable.

"It is way better than a 401k that can lose 80% of it's value in a single day"

Not true, it all depends how that 401k is invested and the risk portfolio that is chosen.

If you are very aggressive and go for the riskiest option - yes, you can lose 80% but also earn 100%
If you pick the least risky option, it is steady growth , very little loss but also very little yearly growth

Please hang on tightly to your home. I am concerned that you should be treated this way. You do need to talk this over with who can help with elderly abuse. Once I had that support I would seek advice on how to respond to him. With that support I would want to tell him that unless you see your grandchildren regularly, you will not leave the house to him! You could always leave it to the grandchildren and cut your son out

Yes, Smileless2012;

I feel like the fear may be the trigger to the reaction. Now, I'm not saying that his reaction is valid, just that it may have been the trigger to his reaction. I do also feel that a few people have gotten in his ear.

Taking away the house and kicking them out is not a way to solve the issue, only make it worse.

Yes, if he were solely reliant on my reminding him of things, it would be unhealthy, but out of necessity I did review daily responsibilities with all of my staff to be sure we are always on the same page. It was literally an important part of my job. I also always remind him of his father's birthday given that his father lives in Canada and a reminder is helpful.

"I also always remind him of his father's birthday given that his father lives in Canada and a reminder is helpful."

Coordinating staff is helpful and needed.

Reminding your adult son of a bday is crossing the line.

Haha! If reminding my son of a birthday is my biggest problem or the cause, well then I don't want to be part of that kind of unrealistic or reasonable relationship anyway. Way too minor and it was always appreciated and thanked...even by his father even though he didn't know that I had to remind his son. It made him happy. That's much more important in my book.

This is not minor. You are micromanaging.

You are triangulating and interfering in another adult relationship (your son and his father) that you are not part of

If "him" refers to the father of the son: making the father of your son happy is a priority, you should have taught your son to remember his father's bday.

If "him" refers to son: your book is not your son's book.
If your son thought his father's bday was important to him, he would make an effort himself to remember it, not rely on another adult.

Well I disagree Hithere if I didn't remind DS it's his dad's birthday, and if Mr. S. didn't remind him of mine he'd never remember.

It's not about "micromanaging" it's about trying to make sure someone isn't upset about their birthday being forgotten and in our case, our DS not feeling 'bad' because he forgot.

I was just thinking the same JGran; reminding your son when it's his father's birthday is the least of your worries.

We all teach our children many things to take forward into adulthood Hithere, unfortunately some of the lessons taught are soon forgotten.

Of course we disagree, smileless. I wouldn't expect any less.

If the bday person is upset his/her bday was forgotten by an important person,
1. Talk to that person or
2. Admit your bday is not important for that person and adjust your expectations

If your son will feel bad for forgeting the bday, he will learn one year and will remember not to make the same mistake next year - accountability and personal responsibility for your own actions.

Instead, let's all tiptoe around the real problem and avoid addressing the cause of it and fix it - a dysfunctional response to avoid real or perceived hurt that may happen

I don’t feel the son’s father has any right to be upset at his son forgetting his birthday given that he abandoned him as a child.

Well yes that's a good point MrsWarren. I suppose for many of us our lives would be easier if we didn't worry about the feelings of others who don't really deserve it.

That's true Hithere; I wouldn't expect any less either that said, if only it was as easy to adjust our feelings as it can be to adjust our expectations.

Regardless of the small detail of JGran's situation we have a son who having estranged his mother is now telling her she'll never see her GS's again unless she does what he wants. That IMO is the real problem.

JGran, I have went back to the beginning of this thread and read through all of your posts.

You have freely admitted to indulging your son, but, given your description of how you have spoiled and subsidised him, I am not sure why you are so surprised at his level of entitlement.

I get it, we all want to give our children a better life than we had ourselves. I understand that, but it is possible to go too far. You seem to be overcompensating.

I don’t think your situation is that black and white though, and there is more going on. Hithere raises some important points and I agree with her when she says “That demand is only the tip of the iceberg.”

This strikes me as a large part of the problem:

The only time I ever stood up to both of the kids, happened long before the estrangement.

They are not kids, they are adults.

You also explained:

He isn't reacting to me cutting him off because I did not until several months after his decision to abandon me. He doesn't even know to what extent he has been removed only that some changes have been made.

I thought you had decided to cut him off because he asked for the house he is living in to be signed over to him, but you now seem to suggest it was because he abandoned you. I don’t think it’s fair to say he abandoned you because he quit his job and for whatever reason, no longer felt able to look after your dogs and chickens, during your treatment. I would use the word “abandon” to describe what his father done to him. Not to him making a decision to no longer work for you.

I wonder how many parents there out there who looking back don't see there were times when they over indulged their children; quite a few I suspect.

Looking back we did the same. Mr. S. wanted our boys to have the childhood that he had and I wanted their childhood to be better than mine. That doesn't in anyway for us, and probably for many parents, mean that we are not surprised when faced with their sense of entitlement.

A lot of parents refer to their adult children as kids. That doesn't mean they don't see them as adults but they are and always will be our 'kids'/children regardless of how old they are.

From what I've read of JGran's posts, she made the decisions she did because her son estranged her. I can understand why she felt he had abandoned her, despite the extenuating circumstances like Alzheimer's for example, that have already been discussed. She was still in a very vulnerable physical, emotional and mental condition at the time he left her.

Walking away, abandoning or estrangement all of which are a reasonable summary of what has happened here IMO, doesn't negate this son's unacceptable behaviour, having been estranged from his mother for a year, to now tell her if she doesn't do what he wants, she will never see her GS's again.

Unfortunately, MrsWarren, you seem to be looking for things that are not there or interjecting your personal experience, I'm not sure. I never said that He walked because of me cutting him off...I believe you were the first to make that statement and another individual jumped in as though you were aware of my personal situation. The fact that the majority of parents call their children by birth and marriage their kids is just as benign as my saying to a group of women at my home, "Would you guys like some sugar with your tea?" I don't mean that I believe my friends are men. Its just a broad term. He's my kid....by marriage...she is too. Just like I'm Mom, Grandma/pa (the little one often refers to me this way since I was bald).

Now, as to the definition of abandonment, well, we may have different opinions as to the specifics. I'd say that going from dinner roughly every other Sunday, me sitting my grandkids roughly once a month and my son coming by at least once a week just to putter in my yard (He enjoyed fussing with the drip system). Then during chemo it was more often while I was not well. He was the one that insisted that he go to the majority of the treatments and his wife insisted on going to some as well. Then nothing. He has stated quite clearly that I can't come over and they are not coming to my home. I moved ten minutes away four years ago because he hated the long drive to my old place. That was one hour. He even helped me find my new house. No, he abandoned me at the job without notice and he abandoned me in our personal life as well. I rarely even get a photo unless a beg for one. He has also abandoned me emotionally. He knows that I have no other family in California. Thankfully, I do have good friends that jumped in to assist me and of course hired help, but it is not the same when you are in the fight for your life and the one person that you have cherished every moment of their life acts like they'd rather you were dead.

JGran

Unfortunately, MrsWarren, you seem to be looking for things that are not there or interjecting your personal experience, I'm not sure. I never said that He walked because of me cutting him off...I believe you were the first to make that statement and another individual jumped in as though you were aware of my personal situation. The fact that the majority of parents call their children by birth and marriage their kids is just as benign as my saying to a group of women at my home, "Would you guys like some sugar with your tea?" I don't mean that I believe my friends are men. Its just a broad term. He's my kid....by marriage...she is too. Just like I'm Mom, Grandma/pa (the little one often refers to me this way since I was bald).

Maybe you’ve mistaken me for another poster because I don’t recall ever saying that your son walked away because you cut him off.

Please don’t assume that I’m interjecting my own personal experience. I’m sure that’s something you’ve read here - I’ve read it here too. But I’m not an EAC or an EP.

I take your point re “kids” - I’ve just realised that you are American and perhaps that is a term commonly used there. I am in the U.K. and we do not refer to adults in that way.

From your posts, I have tried to paint a picture of your situation as best I can. If I’ve got something wrong, then I’m sure you will correct me.

HiThere, I feel like you seem to be putting your personal issues in and confusing them somehow with mine. I can guarantee I hate micromanaging at home and work. I don't like to repeat myself, so I rarely do. Somehow you may have missed the Alzheimer aspect of the situation, so perhaps you have never dealt with anyone with brain injury issues. My ex husband with his which are genetic. My son dealing with his (I suspect due to his signs) and mine memory issues due to chemo. Cancer is super scary on my side of the family and we've had most die at the age of 53 (coincidence) and that was my age at diagnosis. If you know anything about it, Stage 3 and Grade 3 are super scary.

OP
Something had to happen between them being there for you when you were in treatment and then going to nothing.
Very rarely a 180 is done just because.

Hithere

OP
Something had to happen between them being there for you when you were in treatment and then going to nothing.
Very rarely a 180 is done just because.

I agree with this.

To play devil's advocate for a moment, is it possible your son felt that you were expecting too much of him and felt taken advantage of? It might not seem like a lot to you but you did have a lot going on at the time you were so weak with house renovations and all. Feeding the chickens is small, but it also involves travel time to get there each day or two, unless he lives two minutes away. Pottering in your yard once a week might not seem much time, but to a man with a wife and children at home and presumably a job, it is quite a chunk out of the week. Maybe this added a lot more pressure to his life than you are aware of and he needed to step away?

If you like, I'll interject personal stuff, and state that even that much would be very challenging to me if my parent needed that due to circumstances in my own life. I carry a lot already and, as much as I would be willing to help, I would have to be careful how much I gave. I might even have to step back and ask you to find someone else to feed the chickens if it became too much. Not because I want to do that, because I need to.

That's not to say that your son is not wrong or even cruel by threatening to keep GC away, but it does feel like there was a pivot point and I don't think it's been identified what drove that. I think that could be critical information in helping identify what might start to heal your relationship.